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-   -   Another controversial discussion! (Capitalism vs Communism) (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/off-topic/31788-another-controversial-discussion-capitalism-vs-communism.html)

Col. Schafer 03-23-09 06:46 PM

Another controversial discussion! (Capitalism vs Communism)
 
Comunism vs. Capitalism - discuss

My opinion is that comunism would work wonderfully if a stable govornment could be established. ie; one that isnt a dictatorship (nothing against any one given dictator, but someon eventualy will fuck it up) but of course the problom is, how stable is stable enughf? I think that to make it work on a large scale, you would need a government as well thaught out as the US, or the UK to make it work, but those take time and by then someone will probably have declaired themself dictator. Botom line, I think Comunism could work but that its more likely to fail, (and if it fails it epic-fails as history shows us) but I think if it did somehow worked it would be awsome.

Of course I dont expect it to work at any time in the forseeable future, I'm just currious what everyone else thinks.

Red Orc 03-23-09 06:55 PM

Well, I don't think it's ever worked, but then again I don't think it's ever failed either. The only time it was on the cards, between 1917-23, so many communists were murdered that the revolution failed.

By my reckoning, what was set up in Russia wasn't communism, because communism is the establishment of a worldwide, classless, communal society without money, and that's not what happened.

So it has to be worldwide, thereby abolishing all countries, and it has to abolish money and profit (commodity production in fact), exchange and incidently a 'working class'. All will have to be done away with.

It will also do away with 'government' - the 'government of people will be replaced by the administration of things'. I don't see a problem with instability though. It's capitalism that's unstable, as current events show. Oh, and I think, given that capitalist society is collapsing around our ears, that this is very current...

Revelations 03-23-09 08:02 PM

All of these "Government VS" threads can usually be summed up fairly quickly (IMO)... every government is grand in theory, but all goes to shit when you add people to it. Every government has worked for a time, and failed in time. What was the catalyst behind both their success and failures? People.

I hate to say it, but the best government would be a Beneficial Tyranny. One guy makes the rules and everyone follows them, no exceptions. Give him an army of robots or something. Greatest chance of success, to bad no one would go for it, hence the Tyranny part of it. There are many examples of this in history, and while devestating, changed the course of history forever while making dramatic advancements in various fields.

Daneel2.0 03-23-09 10:49 PM

Orc and I have gone round and round about this, but basically my feelings are:
Communism didn't work in small scale trials (communal farms)
Communism didn't work in larger scale trials (countries)
Communism wouldn't work in massive scale (whole world)

In theory, it's possible that some day we'll have the ability to pull something like it off, but until there is literally no need for human labor, that time won't have come.

By way of contrast, true Capitalism is problematic because it doesn't allow for compassion. It a true Capitalist economy, there would be no social security nets (like food stamps, unemployment benefits, welfare, governmental subsidies, etc.). It also actively encourages predatory business practices such as monopolies and price fixing.

Revelations is absolutely correct. No theoretical construct, no matter how perfect its construction or initial implementation can survive long against the depredations of human manipulation.

Col. Schafer 03-23-09 10:53 PM

red orc: Is it really defined as being world wide? I actualy didnt know that. Lets say that for purposes of this discussion we are going to call cuba and the USSR comunist.

Revelations: yeah, I think you have summed it up well. Actualy that beneficial tyrnay sounds interesting. Can you name one of them so I can do some looking into that?

hmmm. Less controvercial than I thaught maby.

oh, ninjad by Daneel2.0:
What about Cuba? They havent failed yet. (I will admit that things are geting scetchy though)
As far as capitalism... well actualy I agree with you on that one.

Revelations 03-23-09 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Col. Schafer (Post 337882)
Revelations: yeah, I think you have summed it up well. Actualy that beneficial tyrnay sounds interesting. Can you name one of them so I can do some looking into that?

Two spring to mind right away...

1. Genghis Khan.

2. Qin Shi Huang.

Although their political and governmental structures may be called something more specific to the individuals, both fall under what I would consider the Beneficial Tyranny.

You may not like either one of them, nor what tactics they employed to further to own agendas, but by god did they make major impacts on the world and revolutionize many aspects of modern life.

Other forms would include many Monarchys you might already be familiar with, including but not limited to; much of the British Empire, the Roman Empire, and the Egyptian Empire.

Unity is a grand thing. The only problem with it is that the world has become so individualized that an attack on personal freedoms cannot be tolerated, regardless of the greater good it could do if sacrificed even for a moment. Such is the sick and twisted joke of tolerance.

But I'm ranting now...

xiawujing 03-24-09 01:31 AM

You wanna see Communism with a "stable" government? Well, the current American system is just about as stable as it gets so far in human history. And Obama and Friends currently are trying their hardest to transcend out current capitalistic state and turn us towards communism. So just give it a few years, and see how you like it.

Dirge Eterna 03-24-09 02:11 AM

I always envied ideal Marxism, where all people would just work to eat, and get all their needs satisfied BECAUSE they worked, to help feed others. It wouldn't work in the end because some asshat would declare "My job is sitting around."

At least that's when you add people. Like's been said, People are the reason government fails. Similarly, Life is the cause of Death.

-Dirge

Wraithian 03-24-09 02:32 AM

The scenario I see infuriates me.

Me: IT professional, essential personnel, meaning I can be called in at any time, 24/7/365.

Asshole Jim: Works at Wal-Mart as a door greeter. He goes home at night, doesn't have nearly the amount of stress, nor the amount of education I do.

Asshole Jim reaps the same benefits to the letter as I do.

Fuck communism.

cafel 03-24-09 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xiawujing (Post 338000)
You wanna see Communism with a "stable" government? Well, the current American system is just about as stable as it gets so far in human history. And Obama and Friends currently are trying their hardest to transcend out current capitalistic state and turn us towards communism. So just give it a few years, and see how you like it.

Bah, I'm sick of hearing this. The Obama administraton is doing nothing close to communism and no more socialism then what was seen in the New Deal. He's been supplying the banks with capital and buying up toxic debt. There has yet to be a goverment take over of the banking system (which is much less socialistic then it sounds, the goverment usually only controls the banks for a few hours to a few days until they are resold to private interests, this is the route that the United States has often advised other countries with banking crisises to take in the past,) and there seems to be few signs that this is in the cards.

While certainly not practicing completely free market policies, which I would be disturbed if he did, Obama is not a communist, or even much of a socialist.


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