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-   -   Gravitatory Vehicles blocking line of sight? (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-rules-discussion/262-gravitatory-vehicles-blocking-line-sight.html)

earemir 01-03-07 04:21 PM

Gravitatory Vehicles blocking line of sight?
 
First, Hi everyone, I'm new here, nice page. Very clean.

If I remember good in 3th edition gravitatory vehicles in general didn't blocked line of sight, so for example, a Howling Banshee Unit disembarking from a Wave Serpent were unprotected against fire from enemies in front of the Wave Serpent.

Is this working in the same way now in 4th edition? I have the rulebook but I don't find a similar rule.

Could you please help me a little bit here?

Thanks,

Regards,
Earemir.

Knight of ne 01-03-07 04:26 PM

i think that know you have to pass a target priority test to see if you can shoot.

for example, banshees get out of wave serpent but to be shot your opponent has to pass a target priority test, i think.

blkdymnd 01-03-07 04:33 PM

I thought vehicles were not eligible to have the priority test taken. In other words, vehicles if i remember right may be shot at regardless of priority and can shoot at anything regardless of priority. Thats just off memory though

earemir 01-03-07 04:43 PM

Yes you are right, you don't have to pass a priority test for vehicles and monstrous creatures, But what about the line of sight, gravitatory vehicles block line of sight?


x -------> W b


For example, if X is a devastator squad, W is a wave serpent and B is a Banshee Squad, can X see B and fire at them?

What do you think?

pathwinder14 01-03-07 04:44 PM

It says so right in the rules. Skimmers never block line of sight.

earemir 01-03-07 04:49 PM

That's what i wanted to know

Thank you.

:)

The Son of Horus 01-03-07 07:06 PM

You have to take target priority if you're shooting a vehicle or monstrous creature and there's another vehicle or monstrous creature that's closer, though.

Galahad 01-04-07 12:14 AM

However, just because skimmers don;t block LoS doesn;t mean hiding behind them is a bad idea.

A common Tau tactic ("Fish of Fury") is to move their skimmer transport in close, disembark a unit of fire warriors from the back (within 12" rapid fire range) and unload into the target squad from behind their tank. Meanwhile, if the target squad wants to fire back they have to make a target priority check. And if they want to charge the melee-weak tau, they have to run all the way around the tank, and by then the Tua will have climbed back in and taken off.

earemir 01-04-07 02:24 PM

Yes, you are right, nice tip. I usually use Banshees but I'm having some problems to reach combat without been killed first.

Can you help me some tips about how to manage banshees in Wave Serpents, how to assault efficiently?

Galahad 01-04-07 03:11 PM

Well, the first thing to remember is that no army consists of just one squad. Your melee troops will never get into assualt if they don;t have fire support taking out squadbusting guns, and other units providing a distraction. When I play marines,I have my LSTs buzzing the enrmy, raking them with withering fire and generally drawing a ton of fire while my assault squad leap frogs from cover toc over until they;re in range.

A skimmer transport means you can't completely hide behind it, but at least they'll have to make a Ld check to shoot your squad.

Try not to get too close when you deploy. Banshees are Fleet, which means they can move 6+1d6" and then assault 6" if you don't fire. Try placing your banshees out of rapid-fire range. They can close that gap pretty swiftly on your turn, and it;ll help keep them from getting mown down. If the enemy squad doesn;t have heavy weapons and isn't afraid to get in closer, you might place them further back than that, so they can;t move up and then rapid-fire your ass off.

Don't forget about terrain. See if you can deploy behind some piece of area terrain, or a LOS-blocking terrain feature, like a hill or wall. Even if it puts you a little further back, you can probably gamble on fleet to get you by.

Use the transport to harass the enemy. Tank shock them, shoot the crap out of them, keep it between them and you. aNything to make them focus shots on your serpent. Between the energy field and its fast skimmer status, that little monster is going to be hard to kill

pathwinder14 01-04-07 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad
However, just because skimmers don;t block LoS doesn;t mean hiding behind them is a bad idea.

A common Tau tactic ("Fish of Fury") is to move their skimmer transport in close, disembark a unit of fire warriors from the back (within 12" rapid fire range) and unload into the target squad from behind their tank. Meanwhile, if the target squad wants to fire back they have to make a target priority check. And if they want to charge the melee-weak tau, they have to run all the way around the tank, and by then the Tua will have climbed back in and taken off.

Ummm...they do not have to make a target priority check. They either choose to shoot at the troops or the vehicle. They can gladly shoot the firewarriors with no target priority roll required. Says so right in the rule book.

Anphicar 01-04-07 07:53 PM

Just think of it this way--If something was floating (a skimmer) above a squad, why shouldnt i be able to shoot at it?

Skimmers are really "skimming" the ground.

They are probably around 12 feet off of the ground.

Galahad 01-05-07 01:14 AM

You don;t have to make a target priority check to shoot a squad if a vehicle is closer?

I thought it was only the other way around (you don;t need to check to shoot a vehicle, unless another vehicle is closer)

Sarigar 01-05-07 01:19 AM

Pathwinder- It actually does not say so in the rulebook. It is often played that way, but not correct.

-The rules state you have to fire at the nearest unit.
-If you choose to fire at something other than the nearest unit, you make a target priority test.
-Vehicles and Monstrous Creatures are an exception. You may opt to target the closest one w/o a target priority test.
-There is no rule that states you can ignore the vehicle/monstrous creature to fire at infantry. (This is the part that gets confused often)

I've had to read that section a few times to realize that targetting vehicles/monstrous creatures is the only one you don't roll target priority for.

Frankenskid 01-05-07 12:32 PM

PW I would have to say that you are mistaken in this. You have to take a LD test not to shoot at the closest enemy anything. If the DF is closer than the FWs, then you have to test to not shoot at the DF. Where you are getting mistaken is that you can choose to shoot at the closest vehicle or MC with no LD test.

pathwinder14 01-05-07 03:02 PM

You are both wrong. RE-read the rules. WHen shooting you first have to declare if you are shooting at troops or vehicles/monstrous creatures. Once you make that decision you have to fire at the closest of the chosen type. If you have one of two units of troops to shoot at then you make a priority check. If you have one of two units of monstrous creatures/vehicles to shoot at you make a priority check.

You can ignore the vehicle for teh troops with no priority check required. Re-read the rules for LOS and targeting.

Galahad 01-05-07 03:17 PM

The rule you're referencing does say you can ignore troops and other non-large units if you elect to shoot at large targets. THis is what we all agree on.

However, you're reading too much into it. Nowhere does it say that you may elect to shoot at only small targets and ingore vehicles and large targets. In fact, it actually very clearly defines what units may be targeted in this way.

Quote:

FIRING AT LARGE TARGETS (bottom p19)
[...]
when it comes to choosing a target, you can declare that your unit wishes to target enemy vehicles, artillery and monsterous creatures (these are the ONLY unit types that you can target this way, collectively referred to as 'Large Targets'). If you choose to target Large Targets then other unit can be ingored in terms of determining the closest target.
[...]
(emphasis mine)

It says very clearly, that you may ONLY do this when targeting vehicles, artillery and monsterous creatures.

Meaning it only goes one way. You can ingore squads to target vehicles, but you CANNOT ignore the vehicle to target the squad. Nothing in the rule even suggests that you can opt to fire at only smaller targets.

Unless you;re citing some other rule, in which case please give me a page number and quote

pathwinder14 01-05-07 03:29 PM

You're missing the point. Unless you state you are going to shoot at large targets you will shoot at other units.

In our or example I can freely shoot the Fire Warriors because I am not declaring large targets. Now then, if there was another unit of troops closer to my squad I would have to make a target priority check to be able to shoot the fire warriors instead.

I do not have to make a target priority check because I am shooting units of troops. To shoot at anything other than units of troops I have to declare I am shooting at large targets. Since I did not make that declaration, I can freely shoot the firewarriors.

Look in the book again. The example you see is a unit of eldar standing behind a falcon. It clearly states they can be shot at because the falcon does not block LOS. It says nothing about a priority check.

blkdymnd 01-05-07 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pathwinder14

Look in the book again. The example you see is a unit of eldar standing behind a falcon. It clearly states they can be shot at because the falcon does not block LOS. It says nothing about a priority check.

That example is talking about line of sight, not target priority. It's only stating what legal targets may be shot at, not mentioning at all which ones you would have to take a test to shoot at.

The last part of the quoted rule, "A leadership test is still required to target anything other than the closest large target"

pathwinder14 01-05-07 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blkdymnd
The last part of the quoted rule, "A leadership test is still required to target anything other than the closest large target"

Yes, but this only comes into play if you declare you are shooting at large targets. If I am not shooting large targets I do not have to take a LD test for priority.

In the shooting phase units get a few choices. They can either shoot other units OR they can shoot large targets. Once they decide which one they are shooting at they then need to shoot the closest one. I.E. if I declare I'm shooting units I have to shoot the closest unit. If I am shooting large targets I have to shoot the closest large target. If I want to shoot anything other than the closest one, then (and only then) do I take a target priority check.

Target priority is used to allow units to choose between the closest threat of a similar size category.
.................................................. .......
X........................................... TTTT
X................................................. ........
X................................................. ... UUUUU
X................................................. ........
X................................................. ............

X= my unit
TTTT = Immobilized Enemy tank
UUUUU = Enemy unit of troops
........= Grass

My unit does not have to make a target priority check to shoot your unit. SInce I never declared I'm shooting large targets I can ignore the immoblized tank.

No where in the rule book does it state I HAVE to shoot large targets. It does however state I'm given the choice to shoot large targets if I want to. It's my choice. By your ruling I now HAVE to shoot the devilfish or take a target priority check to shoot the firewarriors. My ability to choose large targets has been made for me. This is not correct.

Read it again. Call GW and they will back what I'm saying.

sportman 01-06-07 12:49 AM

PW, I don't think ur write on this one. What ur saying is that a squad would not care if a large carnifex was closer to them if they wanted to shoot gaunts. I've read the rulebook and it desn't classify target priority like that. It only works the other way around.

Galahad 01-06-07 12:51 AM

Seriously, man. Open the book and read it. Vehicles, Artillery and monsterous creatures are the ONLY TARGETS YOU MAY SINGLE OUT IN THIS WAY

If an infantry unit is in front of a large target, you may single out the closest large target and shoot it instead.

Nowhere does it say or even SUGGEST that it works the other way around. In fact, it implicitly says if it ain't a vehicle, artillery or monster critter, you CANNOT single it out and shoot it wihtout a priority roll if somehting else is closer.

It's not "I'm going to shoot at large targets OR everything else."

It's "I'm going to shoot at the closest target OR the closest Large Target"

Normal rules:
Shoot at the closest target, make a Ld check to shoot anything else.
OR
Opt to shoot the closest vehicle, make a LD check to shoot any vehicle other thant he closest.

Nowhere, NOWHERE does it add "Or choose to shoot the closest 'non-large' target"

In fact, the rule we're wrangling about is called "Shooting at LARGE targets"

not "Shooting at large or small targets"

You;re reading too much into it. Just look at the black and white. You may single out large targets and nothing else.

As for calling GW, that is never a good way to end an arguement. A different person picks up the phone every time, so you get a different human being's opinion on a rule. I called them three times with a yes or no question and got three different answers.

Q: Can furioso dreadnoughts use drop pods?
A1: No, it;s not listed under their unit entry
A2: Yes, Drop Pod Assault rules mention 'all dreadnoughts'
A3: Uh...I think this is mentioned in your codex FAQ. Go to the website and download it, it should answer all your questions. <click> (For the record, it's not in the update FAQ)

Jeridian 01-06-07 03:36 AM

Aye, so many people love to ignore this rule.

I remember a game when a Necron Monolith deep struck into the middle of my army- no biggy, I can ignore it and shoot at the Necrons.
Then I fail most of my Target Priority and soon heavy bolter rounds are pinging pointlessly of the pyramid.

So if you have an expendable vehicle and/or valuable troops- send it ahead and it may even draw the fire of a squad that can't hurt it, but could hurt the troops.

jigplums 01-06-07 11:20 AM

It makes sense, If a 16ft monsterous creature was baring down on me, id be pumping that bolter for all it was worth... Who cares if it has a 2+ save when its about to rip you in half

Jeridian 01-06-07 10:12 PM

Agree it makes sense.

Shoot at the big scary tank rumbling over your trench, or at distant enemy infantry scurrying beyond it.

The Wraithlord 01-06-07 10:53 PM

Quote:

My unit does not have to make a target priority check to shoot your unit. SInce I never declared I'm shooting large targets I can ignore the immoblized tank.
Incorrect. The tank is the closer unit and a priority check MUST be made to shoot at anything that is not closer. The ONLY exception to this is if you are shooting at a Vehicle/Large Target that is not the closest unit. You may ignore the closer unit to taget the vehicle, provided the closer unit is not also a vehicle or large target.


Quote:

Normal rules:
Shoot at the closest target, make a Ld check to shoot anything else.
OR
Opt to shoot the closest vehicle, make a LD check to shoot any vehicle other thant he closest.
This is correct.

pathwinder14 01-08-07 01:44 PM

Sigh...I re-read the rules....again. Looks like I am indeed wrong. But I argued my point so well; so articulate; so well thought out. Crap. Oh well.

At least this little rules debacle turned out well. We had no flame wars going on.

Galahad 01-08-07 02:11 PM

Indeed. As long as something is learned, no debate is a waste of time, and everyone did a pretty good job of keeping cool. I dub this thread a total success ;-)

The Wraithlord 01-08-07 06:20 PM

Indeed, a nice rules debate that remain just that, a debate. Too often this kind of thing results in flammage of all and sundry but we kept it together nicely.


PW, don't feel bad. I have done the same thing several times myself and then been proved wrong (don't get me started on the Chosen of Ahriman :evil: ). It doesn't help if that is the way you and your regular opponents have been playing.

Phazael 01-08-07 08:48 PM

Short answer:
Mobile Skimmers never block LOS.

You can ignore small targets in favor of larger stuff when making target priority tests, but not the reverse.


So, in your example, banshees hopping out the back of a serpent could be shot at provided any needed priority tests were passed.

earemir 01-08-07 09:25 PM

Cool, thanks for the explanation, all this debate brings me a lot to think about ... mmm. :twisted:


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