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Khorne's Fist 10-13-17 04:58 PM

Origins of the Carcharadons
 
I recently finished Carcharadons: Red Tithe, and was intrigued by the various hints at their origins. I know people seem to think they are Raven Guard descendants, but the novel seems to indicate otherwise. The beauty of reading on a Kindle is that I can highlight various quotes, and find them easily later, so I'm going to put out some of the quotes, and see what people think. Hopefully we can get a decent discussion going, something that's been missing in the fluff boards for a while.

Quote:

[H]e was able to blend instinctive blade work with the close combat savagery that was the genetic inheritance of the Carcharadons.
While they are renowned for many things, close combat savagery has always been more associated with SW, WE or BA. This is one of the first things that made me think of something other than RG.

Quote:

The Blindness beckoned, that silent, suicidal ennui that made up one of the darkest parts of his chapter's twisted genetic inheritance.
Yes, RG and their primarch are pretty emo, but I don't recall it ever having been mentioned that they had a condition similar to the Butcher's Nails or Black Rage. There is no indication of implants though, or a mass insanity that overcomes the likes of the Death Company.

Quote:

These loyalists were unlike and he'd encountered before. They bore a curious resemblance to the Night Lords themselves, but where the VIII Legion delighted in the terror they caused, these grey killers seemed to be without any emotion at all.
The Sharks fight in total silence, no war cry or bellows of rage. Nothing too specific there though.

Quote:

Sharr's Chapter had left humanity for the emptiness of the Outer Void when He [the Emperor] and they would not return until He did so once again.
They were banished while the Emperor was alive, so could they possibly be descended from survivors of one of the missing Legions? A stretch, I know.

Quote:

Only with the coming of the Forgotten One could the Edicts of Exile be overturned, and the Chapter's eternal crusade in the darkness be brought to an end.
Again, is this one of the missing primarchs that they are waiting on? We know now that Primarchs are making a comeback, and while GW refuses to engage with any discussion about them, even reining in the BL authors from dropping hints about them, it would open a whole new angle to bring one of the missing back.

Quote:

When they had first been banished, none had expected them to survive, let alone remain united as a chapter. But survive they had, their disparate heritage bound by their faith on Him on Earth. Nothing could shake that.
"Disparate heritage" immediately set me thinking that they were a combine of loyalists from the various traitor legions, or the remains of the Crusader Host, that were banished to an eternal exile. Along with the previous mention of the "chapter's twisted genetic inheritance" I like this idea best.

Quote:

The Blindness burned away his thoughts, demanded he sell himself...
Again, more a BA or WE trait than any other.

Quote:

...his pale features streaked bright red, panting as he quenched the manic frenzy that was his genetic inheritance.
See above.

Quote:

The Pale Nomad [Te Kahurangi, the Chief Librarian of the Carcharadons] was also, according to Bar'ghul, his brother.
Bar'ghul is a demon that the NL sorceror in the story consorts with. Could he be descended from NL geneseed?

Quote:

Down in the depths of the White Maw, the Greats slumbered. There were three of them, three Wandering Ancestors, their bones reduced to ossified cartilage, sealed away for eternity in the adamantium shells of their Contemptors.
These guys were either interred or are at least alive before even Bjorn was interred, by all accounts, if they were actually exiled while the Emperor was alive.

Quote:

The White Maw itself was, at its most basic levels, a venerable Exile-Era Tyrant Class Capital Ship. The Original design had been both rebuilt and expanded down the centuries. New engine blocks, plasma recyc systems, triple-admantium bulk heads. The White Maw was a patchwork monstrosity, its capabilities more akin to the Battle-Barges of more standardized Chapters. Her six escorts likewise displayed the broadest range of class variation imaginable from the retrofitted Sword Frigate "Grey Harvest" to the Crusade-Era Wrath Hammer "Void Revenant" - more than half the fleet had been in service since The Day Of Exile.
All preHeresy classes of ship, and would be considered relics if they are as old as they seem.

So, my personal opinion is of a chapter made up of loyalists from traitor legions, and down the years various geneseeds have been mixed and matched, leading to hybrids of the various legions. They have a physical defect that appears as they get older, the description of of which sounds like their skin becomes almost shark like in patches, which could be the result of the combining of geneseeds.

What are people's thoughts? Am I looking too much into it all? Is there any merit to my conclusion?

Old Man78 10-13-17 05:27 PM

Maybe they are a hodge podge of loyal marines from traitor chapters. Used to fight against Horus but out in the far depths of the imperium because they were not entirely trusted. Physically however they have a N.L /R.G look, could they be loyalist N.Ls that Kurze sent away pre Heresy, before he went too mad, or Coraxs bastard children, maybe he didnt kill them all, maybe the mutation stabilised and he sent them off. Corax is missing and could be the "forgotten one" also at istvaan, Coraxs is described as fighting in an absolute blind frenzy of rage, maybe his weirdo warp poisoned children inherited this from him, the way the psychic shock of Sanguinias getting throttled affected the B.A

Brother Lucian 10-13-17 05:43 PM

From wh40k wiki. The raven guard does have a genetic condition which matches with the behavior of the carcharodons. Also, look at the pre corax Raven Guard, when they were led by Shade Lord Arkhas Fal. They were brutal slavers then. Which the sharkies also happen to be.
Raven Guard | Warhammer 40k | FANDOM powered by Wikia

Shadow Killers - Amongst the Raven Guard and the XIXth Legion that preceded them, there was a tendency amongst combat veterans placed in situations of extreme stress to forsake all pretense of self-preservation, fighting with a terrifying, silent determination and the sole aim of causing as many casualties and as much destruction as possible before succumbing to their foe. This strange blood-soaked ennui that drove many amongst the Raven Guard to sacrifice themselves in battle was known among the Terran XIXth Legion as becoming "Ash Blind", while the Raven Guard native to Deliverance knew it as the "Sable Brand", a condition heralded by the darkening of the entire eye to black. Those warriors who survived their suicidal furies sometimes recovered, their brethren never mentioning the incident in a typically Raven Guard display of reticence, but more often were evermore plagued in combat by the urge to slay until death took them, paying no heed to tactical plans. The XIXth Legion, in the days before Corax' return, made little attempt to organise the Ash Blind on the battlefield, relying on the flexible nature of their tactical doctrines to make the maximum use of their suicidal urges when they took hold. The Raven Lord turned this aberrant effect of his gene-seed into a valuable weapon in his tactical arsenal, forming those afflicted by the Sable Brand into units of Shadow Killers and employing them as shock assault troops and assassins. It was the employment of such troops that allowed Corax to best his brother Roboute Guilliman in several simulated battles, an unexpected tactic that the lord of the Ultramarines was quick to adopt into the Legiones Astartes order of battle, creating the Moritat as it was later known amongst the Legiones Astartes.

Corax banished the terran legionaries under Arkhas Fal into the void when he took control of the legion. And made no effort to ever recall them, as their modus operandi was completely at odds with his own beliefs. From what I can see on wiki, their chapter master rank is Shade Lord.

Old Man78 10-13-17 06:11 PM

@Brother Lucian , well that just screams Raven Guard!


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