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-   -   Returning 2nd edition player needs help against Genestealer swarm! (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-tactics/218393-returning-2nd-edition-player-needs-help-against-genestealer-swarm.html)

Liger404 09-27-17 09:21 PM

Returning 2nd edition player needs help against Genestealer swarm!
 
Hey guys i'm a returning 2nd edition player and am having some trouble in 8th. Loving 8th edition but need to get up to speed. Im down 1/3 against my brothers Tyranids.

1500 point games.

His army

3 units of genestealers. I think 30 in size.

3 brood lords

3 flyrants.

He deploys in a mass swarm on the front edge of deployment zone. His low unit count gives him first turn. He rushing the fast flyrants near anything that can shoot. They tie me up for a turn then his genestealer swarm charges on turn 2. (move 8 plus advance plus charge).

I think my army build is wrong and I need some deployment advice.

My army, Blood Angles.

Lemartes and sanguinary priest

30 DC with chainswords and jump packs in 2 units

10 tac marines with 2 storm bolters in 2 units.

5 Rievers just cause they are so Blood Angel. I think I may need to drop these guys for this match up.

1 basic Dreadnaught with Assault cannon and dual auto cannon. I did try him with heavy flamer and power fist also.

1 razorback with dual assualt cannon, storm bolter and HK missle.

10 Devastators in 5 man teams. 2xLascannon 2xHeavy Bolter with Cherub.

Want to keep the DC if possible for fluff reasons, everything else is up for grabs. Would really appreciate some build tips and deployment tips. Need to get some wins on the table!

ntaw 09-28-17 01:30 AM

Hello and welcome to Heresy! :drinks:

You've stumbled onto two of my favourite things in this hobby (the two things that drew me to it way back): Blood Angels and Genestealers.

As much as I love the DC you'll be loathe to win a combat battle against blobs of 'stealers. You just have to shoot them up as much as you can, also things that hit automatically are good for overwatch as well. If you want to keep the DC I would suggest putting just about everything else into ranged dakka since you know darn well he'll be up in your grill stat. Maybe use them against the Flyrants...how many power fist or thunder hammer models do you have in there? Twin assault cannon Razorbacks, Baal Predators, dual twin autocannon Dreadnoughts, Stormravens; that's the sort of thing you want to have against those Genestealers. Be able to hit them where they deploy, as they're coming to you, and with Overwatch through range and rate of fire. You could also use the DC as a counter-attack unit for when the 'stealers get to your lines. No point rushing anywhere when your enemy is that much faster than you.

Considering some of that stuff (hopefully you find it applicable) what sort of models do you have that fill those roles?

Liger404 09-28-17 09:12 AM

I've got most stuff. I can field more tactical marines and swap the weapons simply enough. I will buy a Storm raven, I wanted one of them anyway. Didn't exist when I started. I have Mephiston as well. I guess I can drop the death company for this 1 match up. What would you go for with HQ for a shooting army then? Just the normal Captain? I have 3 Inceptors as well. They actually did well in the game I used them in, but I am concered he will just charge them with a flyrant. They are a lot of fairly squishy points.

ntaw 09-28-17 02:26 PM

I'm not really suggesting you play Space Marines over Blood Angels, the DC can still work for you just fine. The rest of your army isn't really addressing the problem you're having. Pretty much nothing aside from your Razorback and maybe your Dreadnought is optimized for dealing with massed infantry. You just aren't shooting enough even within a BA context right now and Tactical squads really aren't the same type of solution as the unit choices I tossed up previously. You need more range and a higher rate of fire. Genestealers can cover almost 24" casually in their move and charge as you're well aware, adding things that have a 24" threat range (more optimally a 12" threat range) is playing into your enemy's strengths. Vehicles can sort of mitigate the risks of being by being higher toughness but even that falls to massed attacks.

I've no experience with Primaris marines to comment there. Every time I look at them I think "but I have BA units that do that sort of stuff already" :laugh:

EDIT: Do you happen to have another twin assault cannon Razorback? Check out this list, using the models you've mentioned you own.

Vanguard Detachment

Lemartez

Sanguinary Priest

2x 15 man DC squads - chainswords, jump packs

2x 5 man Tactical squads - heavy bolter, storm bolter

2x 5 man Devastator squads - lascannon (for that signum shot)

Dreadnought - twin autocannon, assault cannon (twin heavy bolter may be better as it lets you put stormbolters on your Razorbacks)

2x Razorbacks - twin assault cannons

Comes out to 1499. Play the Tactical squads close enough for fire support to each other on objectives or put them in the Razorbacks, use the tanks to screen the DC blob, Devastators and Dreadnought hang out way back working together with their 48" weapons to shoot at Flyrants and their shorter ranged weapons to deal with imminent threats.

ALL THE EDITS: Just realized that you could play both the Tactical as Devastator squads for the same cost and get signums on those heavy bolters. It also means Vanguard and Spearhead Detachments, so 5 command points instead of 4 and more accurate heavy weapons for the same points.

Liger404 09-28-17 11:53 PM

Thank you for the list recommendation, looks more effective.

I see what your saying about the bolt gun range issue. I can field 3 razorbacks, I have swap-able turrets so dual assault cannons in this case. And I can run 4 Devastator teams with a bit of proxy. What do you think of dropping the jump packs from the DC to save points and putting them in the 2 Razorbacks/StormRaven. I would need to cut the number to 16, that will free up 328pts so I could also have a storm raven to hold them inside. I like your idea of spreading the heavy weapons out across the squads, much harder to tie them all up. The Inceptors are pretty unique. Move 10" jump infantry with dual assualt heavy bolters. But for 180pts.

Here is a list I can field trying to use your advice.

Lemartes

Sanguinary priest with power axe

16 DC. Bolt pistol/chainsword, 10 in the Stormraven with the HQ and 6 in razorback. 1 thunder hammer in the razorback for Flyrant swatting.

20 Devastators in 4 squads. 2 squads have 1 lascannon and a cherub. 2 squads have a heavy bolter and storm
bolter.

2 Razorbacks with dual assault cannons and heavy bolters. 1 with a HK missle.

1 StormRaven with twin assualt cannon, twin heavy bolter, 2 hurricane bolters and 2 stomstrike launchers

3 Inceptors with dual Assualt bolters.

Again 1499pts.

ntaw 09-29-17 05:06 PM

ugh. Site just ate a huge post. Fucking Heresy sometimes....

tl;dr version is that I really like Stormravens and the heavy bolter is a solid choice in this instance, though outside of this very instance I don't think I'd use them personally.

Interceptors are cool but I've been looking at the Primaris stuff and am struggling to see what they offer BA that doesn't exist for less already. I would personally use Land Speeders over Interceptors as they are faster and have a superior range potential.

Heavy flamer Devastators are currently a thing, though I'm unsure if it will carry over to the Codex next year. Right now 149 points gets you four heavy flamers, a combi-flamer, and a cherub; this unit hopping out of a Razorback or (two hopping out of a) Stormraven is pretty darn brutal to infantry and thankfully for how close they'll be just as effective on overwatch.

I'll just be ctrl+C'ing this before posting now...:laugh:

Liger404 09-29-17 11:43 PM

Yes its always safer to copy before posting! The flame devastators are an interesting idea ill have to see if I can get one in to my razorback. A very nice counter attack to the charge. Ill keep my Inceptors for now, I don't have a land raider plus I want some kind of Primaris unit just because they are cool. Ill try this list first and see what I might be able to do with flame devs.

Lemartes

Sanguinary priest with power maul.

16 DC. Bolt pistol/chainsword, 10 in the Stormraven with the HQ and 6 in razorback.

15 Devastators in 3 squads. 2 squads have 1 lascannon 1storm bolter and a cherub. 1 squad has a heavy bolter and storm
bolter.

2 Razorbacks with dual assault cannons and storm bolters.

1 StormRaven with twin assualt cannon, twin heavy bolter, 2 hurricane bolters and 2 stomstrike launchers

3 Inceptors with dual Assualt bolters.

1 captain with storm bolter and Thunder hammer. He will hang out with the razorbacks and 6 DC troopers for re roll 1s and hopefully fend off a Flyrant.

This also gets me down to 7 Drops for deployment so pretty good chance at first turn. Vanguard, Spearhead and Outrider detachment for 6 CPs. And exactly 1500pts!

ntaw 09-30-17 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liger404 (Post 2429329)
Vanguard, Spearhead and Outrider detachment for 6 CPs.

Er, not really but I do like where you're headed with the list. This isn't even Battle Forged at the moment. Let me nab a pic of Detachments for reference here.

http://www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/...5/vanguard.jpg

You have:

3x HQs
2x Elites
1x Fast Attack
3x Heavy Support
1x Flyer
2x Dedicated Transports

Organizing those unit choices into the Detachment options pictured, you have one Spearhead Detachment with one too many HQ selections. If you played your 10 man DC squad as two separate squads you would have three Elite choices, and be able to fill out the minimum requirements on both a Spearhead and Vanguard Detachment (the units whose FoC designations aren't compulsory to the Detachment can go in either on with no benefit or loss).

As well, the transport capacity of a Stormraven is 12 models with jump pack equipped models taking up the space of two. If you just have your 10 DC models in the Stormraven with Lemartes it's all good but you can't fit the Priest in as well, he'd have to go hang out with the Captain on the ground with the foot DC (though there's room in the tanks for those characters dropping one DC member from each unit; this would also garner points for upgrades within the squads).

Liger404 09-30-17 11:41 PM

Ok, I thought I could use the dedicated transports to fill any spot, I was thinking they could sub in for fast attack to make 3 total. But I see thats not how it works. I was going to Run all the DC with no jump packs so save the points. I figure the storm raven can drop them off pretty close I want the priest with the Raven so the chainsword DC wound on 3s. He will be charging the razorbacks with Flyrants, so that little group with the captain is mostly to counter charge. So this would be battle forged as Vanguard and Spearhead with the DC split in to 3 units? Still 5cp which is enough.

ntaw 10-01-17 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liger404 (Post 2429433)
So this would be battle forged as Vanguard and Spearhead with the DC split in to 3 units? Still 5cp which is enough.

You got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liger404 (Post 2429433)
I want the priest with the Raven so the chainsword DC wound on 3s

My point about the Stormraven was that you seem to have Lemartes, a Priest, and 10 DC in there which doesn't fit. Lemartes comes stock with a jump pack and takes up the space of two models, which exceeds the transport capacity by 1. You could drop one DC and play a 9 man squad so they all fit just means you're back to 4 CPs and a solo Spearhead Detachment.

I don't know if you have the model, or even that it's applicable to this scenario, but Sanguinary Ancients are pretty fun to sneak in with DC. Ignoring morale and re-rolling 1's to-wound in combat are quite nice buffs for them. Also nice that he's an Elite choice with decent weapon options.


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