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-   -   [rules doubt & rant] So, explain me these Daemons (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-rules-discussion/209522-%5Brules-doubt-rant%5D-so-explain-me-these-daemons.html)

diomede.80 09-18-16 10:14 PM

[rules doubt & rant] So, explain me these Daemons
I am a moderately experienced player. Today at a convention I joined an Apocalypse with 9 friends, 2500 pts/each.
It was relatively well arranged (deployment and time restrictions essentially made it a series of 3 large battles among different groups of players, which is manageable). I know perfectly that Apocalypse is completely unbalanced and I also know that Daemons rank among the cheesiest armies. But what happened today goes far beyond the ridicule, and I seriously suspect that an absurd series of combo was coupled with rules that our Daemon opponent hopefully got wrong (intentionally or not, that's another issue...).
I know Daemons for having played against them a few normal games, but I am not very familiar with them and I tend to believe the word of my opponent when I play. But I am asking you to confirm if the following is possible:

Using a number of formations (some possibly apocalyptic) the Daemons entered play in deep-strike with all of the following:

- one Nurgle Soulgrinder, who scattered normally
- 4 more Nurgle Soulgrinders with swords, which, being within 12" of I-do-not-remember-who (possibly the guy above), automatically did not scatter AND could assault on the same turn
- a unit of 4 Tzeentch character-daemons all with the book and the combo that made them 2++ (rerolling 1s) - also automatically did not scatter
- 3 units each of 3 nurgle large flies-daemons...can't remember their names. Shrouded MC, I think S and T 5 or 6, 3 W. Also automatically did not scatter
- One Great unclean one. Also automatically did not scatter
- 2 daemon princes, also automatically did not scatter

In the pyschic phase, the Tzeentch council had something like 20 dice (also feeded by other players' dice) and summoned two Bloodthirsters both with D attacks by sacrificing two Tzeentch daemons, plus a couple units of daemonettes - can you REALLY summon a Khorne daemon from a Tzeentch daemon? Is the codex so fucked up from a fluff perspective?

In the charge phase, 4 Soulgrinder charged and basically completely wiped out my line of tanks and hit my infrantry (I was IG). Each Soulgrinder had a sword and did 5 attacks (6 on charge), master crafted at S 10 AP 2. I lost half of my line in a phase.

In the following turn, 2 of my allies came with all or most of their army basically deep-striking: 2500 pts Blood angels and 2500 pts Grey knights, some even charging on the same turn from Stormravens/Landraiders.

After 2 turns, the Daemon had lost some daemonettes, 1 prince, 2 Soulgrinders. We had lost 90% of our army, including Mephiston, Death Company, some 20 GK terminators with Draigo. 2500 pts Daemons wiped out 7300 pts of enemies, including the alleged anti-Daemon specialists. We could do nothing: EVERYTHING in his army, except for the daemonettes and Soulgrinders, had either a 2++ rerollable save, or a 2+ cover save, or 3++ invulnerable, due to various combos. His Great unclean one also had a permanent 2++ because apparently some guy(s) around boosted the invulnerable save of everyone else. I never saw a single Slow and purposeful difficult terrain roll for any of the Soulgrinders (BTW, does that mean they also subtract 2" from charge moves?).

Fun fact: I had my 'secret weapon', a Culexus in my command bunker, who was supposed to come out and beat the sh*t out of any psyker. But since the daemon never scattered a model and placed them as he pleased, the only ones I could charge where his princes, both with I 8 (poor Culexus is 'only' I 7) and instant death on all attacks, which means I would have died almost certainly, despite them hitting me on 5+ (with a zilion mc attacks). Wise Culexus chose life and did not even bother to try.

All of the above alone proves that this game has serious, serious problems, not to mention other sources of cheese. Am I missing something important?

ntaw 09-19-16 01:29 AM

A prime example of why you should talk about the level of cheese brought out with your opponents and team mates pre-game.

diomede.80 09-19-16 08:02 AM

We did it - that's funny isn't it? No, in fact it is not. Some people just fucked up their mind I guess.

neferhet 09-19-16 08:52 AM

i honestly don't know about the "no scatter" all around and the "assault after deepstrike" soulgrinders. What i can say is that, yes, daemons can summon the shit out of each other like there's no tomorrow and that they can truly become immortal with 2/3 ++ rerollable all around. At 2500 pts, daemons would annihilate you in normal games, let alone apocalypse. If you talked about toning down the cheese, well, you friend wasn't listening! XD
The dark tetrad (the unit of super daemon princes) can be crippling in such an enviroment.
i could add a thing though: you should have expected aggressive deepstriking and bubblewrapped your vehicles with 50+ guards. That's the only way you can withstand such melee power with IG. if you normally don't do that, reconsider. You have to bubblewrap, period. I learned this playing against 'Nids in apocalypse. Less powerful than daemons, but until I put 50-70 guards all around my tanks it was a massacre! Genestealers, living drop pods, spore mines...infantry need to die to gain 1 turn of retaliating fire from tanks. if you think 50 guards are few, go for 70-100conscripts.
For you shall remember: "If your life is given in service to the Emperor, your death shall not be in vain."

ntaw 09-19-16 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by diomede.80 (Post 2361538)
We did it - that's funny isn't it? No, in fact it is not. Some people just fucked up their mind I guess.

I guess what's a cheese party without the whine, right? :laugh:

I kid, sounds like you had a rough game where the imbalance of the lists shone through.

scscofield 09-19-16 06:31 PM

Sounds like a typical Apoc game honestly, everything is over the top in them.

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