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Wilder 10-30-08 12:11 PM

socialism is bad because....
 
Socialism is bad because its a major milestone on the road from capitalism to communsim/dictatorship. Hence Hitler's Germany or Lenin-Stalin Russia.

cccp 10-30-08 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder (Post 220426)
Socialism is bad because its a major milestone on the road from capitalism to communsim/dictatorship. Hence Hitler's Germany or Lenin-Stalin Russia.

i don't believe this for a second. are you trying to say that any country with a socialist government is inevitably going to decline into a soviet paradise?

portugal is a socialist country, and that does not resemble stalinist russia in any shape or form.

Wilder 10-30-08 12:59 PM

It very well could, yes. You only need one corrupt leader. Its alot easier in that type of government than any other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cccp (Post 220438)
i don't believe this for a second. are you trying to say that any country with a socialist government is inevitably going to decline into a soviet paradise?

portugal is a socialist country, and that does not resemble stalinist russia in any shape or form.

So are other European Countries, however moral leaders must be in control. You use Portugal and I use Venezuela as my example.

squeek 10-30-08 01:30 PM

This idea that America might hiccup and suddenly become a socialist state without duly concerned citizens having a say so is hilarious. From an outsiders point of view your choice of candidates is right wing Obama or right wing McCain, the difference politically between them is hardly worth mentioning when you compare them to true left wing politicians.

It is a little surprising that otherwise intelligent and articulate people are taken in by these ridiculous press slander campaigns, and believe without question that a little more tax from rich people = decline in to a Stalinist dictatorship. For a start there are plenty of socialist countries that are doing just fine and have been doing fine for a long time, without the 'inevitable slide in to communism' being a problem. This laughable fear of anything more left wing than your Democrats (who by anyone elses standards are right wing) is a bit outdated now, the Cold War ended a long time ago! All it seems to be doing is distracting voters from actual politics.

cccp 10-30-08 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder (Post 220457)
It very well could, yes. You only need one corrupt leader. Its alot easier in that type of government than any other.

false again, and in this case i use WWII italy and germany as my example. both facist states, not communist. your argument simply doesn't stand up. its unreasonable to think of socialism and capitalism in terms of good and bad. left wing countries dont just hiccup into communist dictatorships, just like right wing ones don't hiccup into facism. its simply not the case at all.

there are a variety of reaasons why a country becomes a dictatorship, not just what side of the spectrum they are. this kind of theory sounds like the domino theory to me, and we all know how rediculous that sounds now.

Wilder 10-30-08 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cccp (Post 220490)
false again, and in this case i use WWII italy and germany as my example. both facist states, not communist. your argument simply doesn't stand up. its unreasonable to think of socialism and capitalism in terms of good and bad. left wing countries dont just hiccup into communist dictatorships, just like right wing ones don't hiccup into facism. its simply not the case at all.

there are a variety of reaasons why a country becomes a dictatorship, not just what side of the spectrum they are. this kind of theory sounds like the domino theory to me, and we all know how rediculous that sounds now.

I do believe I mentioined both communist and dictatorships ["facist states"](Which you ponit out germany and italy fall under). One could say that socialism is "bad" for this country and that capitalism is "good" for this country. In that respect good and bad can be used. And no you just dont wake up one day and your country is communist. It is one thing leading to another.
Dominoes hardly, more like a slow progression. Like a frog in hot water. You throw a frong into boiling water it'll jump right out. However, place him in colc water then slower turn up the heat. The frog will be dead before it knew what hit him.

koppo 10-30-08 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder (Post 220426)
Socialism is bad because its a major milestone on the road from capitalism to communsim/dictatorship. Hence Hitler's Germany or Lenin-Stalin Russia.

It seems you are confusing economic models and forms of government. Democracy is a form of government, as dictatorship, monarchy etc.

Capitalism is an economic model, as is socialism and communism.

You could have a democratic communism (in fact to have a true communism it is impossible for it to be any other way).

One could have a dictator in charge of a nation that is capitalist, as, I think, the fascist nations were.

In fact the most extreme form of capitalism is in fact anarchy. By no means does socialism "cause" dictatorship nor capitalism "cause" democracy. So no, not "hence" at all.

Galahad 10-30-08 01:59 PM

I think we should save the debate on the virtues and natures of various socioeconomic models for a different thread.

That said, I think Squeek nailed it. The idea that raising taxes is going to suddenly send us tailspinning into some sort of communist dictatorship is insanely laughable. It's all pointless distraction.

koppo 10-30-08 02:06 PM

Galahad, any chance of spawning the soicilism = bad debate it to another thread?

cccp 10-30-08 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilder (Post 220507)
I do believe I mentioined both communist and dictatorships ["facist states"](Which you ponit out germany and italy fall under). One could say that socialism is "bad" for this country and that capitalism is "good" for this country. In that respect good and bad can be used. And no you just dont wake up one day and your country is communist. It is one thing leading to another.
Dominoes hardly, more like a slow progression. Like a frog in hot water. You throw a frong into boiling water it'll jump right out. However, place him in colc water then slower turn up the heat. The frog will be dead before it knew what hit him.

all of this is totally irrelavent to your initial statement though - your statement to me showed that you see the two economic models as good and bad, black and white, moral upstanding country, or opressive dictatorship. and as far as i know, socialism doesnt directly *cause* a facist dictatorship either.

this is not, and never will be the case at all, slow progression scaremongering or not.

[edit] thread split - CCCP


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