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Stormxlr 06-28-15 07:47 AM

How to play Deathwing 7th Edition Tactica.
 
I want to start a How to play Deathwing Tactica discussion so we can come up with an acceptable way to play DW until hopefully and errata and FAQ comes out. Or perhaps a dataslate so we can pay for a fix.
This is not a complain thread, we got what we got lets make the best of it.
Also I have to add that, yes I know that you can just add few Ravenwing Bikers to run DW, but thats not the point. The point of this thread is pure Deathwing.
I dont own any bikers and I wont buy any bikers, at least for now.



First of all I will start by going through what constitutes as Deathwing, followed by the changes from 6th ed to 7th ed , new detachment/formation and issues we are facing and possible pure builds.

So lets get to it.

Deathwing consists of the following models/units;
  • Deathwing Terminator Squad
  • Deathwing Command Squad
  • Deathwing Knights
  • Dreadnoughts - Variants such as Chaplain and Contemptor are Venerable by default but not in rule wording but fluff only.
  • Dedicated Land Raiders and Variants.
  • Grand Master Belial and HQ choices capable of wearing Terminator armor (Company Master, Interrogator Chaplain, Librarian)
Changes from 6th ed to 7th ed, new rules are highlighted in Dark Angel Green.
  • Deathwing Terminator price is down to 40 points, so base unit cost is 200.
  • Sergeants can take TH/SS or LCs.
  • TH/SS are 10 points now.
  • Deathwing Champion must issue and Accept challenges whenever possible due to Honour or Death Special Rule.Can only field one in the army, no other changes.
  • Apothecaries are 5 point upgrade now down from 35, but you can only have one in the army.
  • Any Deathwing squad can take Perfidious Relic of Unforgiven. 15pts provides Adamantium will and Fear USRs.
  • Deathwing Knights Mace of Absolution lost Bane of the Traitor but became +2 Str, AP3.Smite mode is now a pseudo smash attack (x2 Str,ap2, 1 attack)
  • Deathwing Knight Master's Flail of Unforgiven lost Bane of the Traitor ( no more ap2 vs CSM) but gained Fleshbane.
  • Inner Circle renamed into Deathwing Special Rule grants Fearless, Hatred (Chaos Space Marines)
  • Lost Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) Can be gained by taking Deathwing Redemption Force.
  • New Grim Resolve, ALL Terminators can overwatch at BS2 now also are Stubborn but that is overridden by Fearless.
  • Vengeful Strike is part of Terminator Equipment rule now.
  • We lost Banner of Fortitude( and other sacred standards, but this one was the most useful)
  • Deathwing Command Squad cant carry Chapter Banner or any other banner besides Deathwing banner or Sacred Standard.
  • Command Squad can "upgrade" 1 model to a DW Sergent.
  • Belial lost ability to make DWT Troops, same point cost, new Warlord trait gives him Precision Shots and Ignores Cover. Marked for Retribution now allows him to re roll hits in challenges, Gained +1 Attack to total of 4.
  • We lost Deathwing Assault from units. No more turn 1 or 2 "secret" Alpha Strike.
  • No more Deathwing Vehicle Rule.
  • Land Raiders lost Dozer Blades.
This are all the changes that I can think of, if I missed some or got something wrong please do mention it.

Lets continue by looking at a new Formation, Deathwing Redemption Force.
Requirements are
  • 1 HQ in Terminator Armor
  • 2-5 Deathwing Terminator Squads
  • 0-1 Deathwing Command Squads
  • 0-1 Deathwing Knights
  • 0-1 Venerable Dreadnought. Must be in Drop pod. No more than one in the unit. So one only in the whole formation.

Command Benefits / Bonuses provided for taking the formation are :

  • You get back Preferred Enemy Chaos Space Marines,
  • NEW Deathwing Assault its exactly the same as before except EVERYONE MUST START In Deep Strike Reserve. You CAN'T arrive turn 1, you can only Deep Strike Turn 2,3, or 4. Drop pod Assault rules are ignored and it arrives together with the formation.
  • Take the fight to the Enemy. When your units arrive by Deep Strike during that turn they get pseudo Battle Focus e.g they can Run and shoot or shoot and run but only during that turn.

Now lets look at the new Deathwing Detachment.
Compulsory
1 HQ
2 Elites
Optional
2 HQ
10 Elites

Restrictions;
  • Units in this detachment must have Deathwing Special Rule
  • Venerable Dreadnought units must contain one model only and must be given a Drop pod.
Command Benefits for Taking this Detachment are:
  • Summoned to War. Everyone must start in Deep Strike Reserve. But if you take Ravenwing Strike Force Detachment or Ravenwing Attack Squadron Formation you can choose to pass or fail the reserve roll and have no need to roll.
  • First Knights of Caliban. If its your primary detachment you get to reroll your Warlord Traits.
  • Take the fight to the Enemy. When your units arrive by Deep Strike during that turn they get pseudo Battle Focus e.g they can Run and shoot or shoot and run but only during that turn.

Both are just alright if used to support Ravenwing or Greenwing. .
Lets look at the problems Pure Deathwing is Facing now.
  • We lost Deathwing Assault turn one Deep Strike and/or no reserve roll DS.
  • We lost Heavy Support choices , so no more FW Land Raider Variants like Spartan, or Deredeo Dreadnoughts.
  • We lost Objective Secured DWT
  • No more Starting on the table to footslog
  • We can take Dedicated Land Raider Transports but we CANT field them since we have to Start in Deep Strike Reserve. So by RAW we cant field Land Raiders at all.
  • Deathwing Redemption Force Formation auto looses turn one since there are no models on the board.
  • Deathwing Strike Force Detachment can drop pod assault turn 1 so you need to take at least 1 Dreadnought in Drop Pod and survive turn one and then roll for every unit to come in on 4+ Turn 2. Not Very reliable at all.
Now while the some changes are nice and some are ok, what we gained in special rules does not outweigh what we lost. But everybody already knows that. We are here to see how we can remedy the situation

Lets look at the possible ways of playing fluffy pure Deathwing.
In my opinion it would be beneficial to take the Redemption Force Formation over the Detachment, You get back Preferred Enemy and dont need to roll when your units will come in.
Now once you took the Redemption Force you need to find a way to get models on the table turn one so you dont auto loose.
Now here are some ways of doing it that I thought of since we can only use Terminators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts.
  • Take 3 Land Raider Formation from SM codex as your pseudo heavy support DW Land Raiders.
  • Take Unbound Dreadnoughts and/or Land Raiders and start them on the board. Now this is the only way to get your Forge World toys to play with your Deathwing.
  • IIRC there is a Dreadnought formation in SM book. You can take that.
  • You can take allied detachment of 6th edition Dark Angels and Deep Strike Belial and one group of DWT on the board and take those Dreadnoughts, Land Raiders.
  • Go full unbound.
  • Keep on using 6th Ed codex to play pure Deathwing and use 7th Edition to play Greenwing/Ravenwing.
  • You can field allied Terminators that count as Deathwing on the table.
This are the legal ways of doing it , however you could always politely ask your opponent to let you deep strike turn one, or ignore the rule where it states that you auto loose if you have no models on the table, so he can make two moves and psychic phases. OR you can ask Ultramarines how come they can DS turn one now and Deathwing cant... sorry I meant you can take Strike force Ultra Formation and play those SM Terminators or substitute units from Codex SM for Codes DA if your opponent allows it. Marines are marines in the end of the day and this is just a formation.

Well this is my breakdown of "new" Deathwing.*snip*. Lets see what you guys can make of this.

FOR THE LION!

FOR CALIBAN!
LONG LIVE THE DEATHWING!

ntaw 06-30-15 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2167074)
we got what we got lets make the best of it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2167074)
I will probably just keep on using 6th ed rules for Deathwing

You seem juxtaposed against yourself here my friend :laugh:

Seems like DW as a solo force simply doesn't exist anymore. We can add in whatever we want through allies or take Raven/Greenwing, but we're still putting something other than terminators on the table where before we didn't.

It's time for a reevaluation of what we consider a fluffy DW army is, much like when BA lost assault marines as troops. Initially taking tactical marines really didn't feel right but the more games I put in the more I liked having them in my lists, and really even in the old book the companies all had more tactical than assault squads. I feel like this initial hurt is crummy, but DW always needed something more than terminators and land raiders to be a 'competitive' (said loosely because how truly competitive can they be when GK are what they are) force on the battlefield.

I don't want to buy bikes for my army either (and won't, just like I won't buy tomb blades for my 'crons...barring the most insane of deals maybe....), but I will be allying in Guard tanks or BA drop pods to give myself a T1 presence for the DW to show up later. At least the squad points drop gives us a bit more wiggle room for allies. Can't think of a time when I played DW at less than 1500 points, but my 21 terminators sit at 1130 points as modeled and leave me with a bit of space to get stuff on-table....like a couple hidden Assassins and a servo-skull wielding Inquisitor. At 2k 870 points spent on anything should be able to survive a turn.

Stormxlr 06-30-15 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 2167978)
You seem juxtaposed against yourself here my friend :laugh:

Seems like DW as a solo force simply doesn't exist anymore. We can add in whatever we want through allies or take Raven/Greenwing, but we're still putting something other than terminators on the table where before we didn't.

It's time for a reevaluation of what we consider a fluffy DW army is, much like when BA lost assault marines as troops. Initially taking tactical marines really didn't feel right but the more games I put in the more I liked having them in my lists, and really even in the old book the companies all had more tactical than assault squads. I feel like this initial hurt is crummy, but DW always needed something more than terminators and land raiders to be a 'competitive' (said loosely because how truly competitive can they be when GK are what they are) force on the battlefield.

I don't want to buy bikes for my army either (and won't, just like I won't buy tomb blades for my 'crons...barring the most insane of deals maybe....), but I will be allying in Guard tanks or BA drop pods to give myself a T1 presence for the DW to show up later. At least the squad points drop gives us a bit more wiggle room for allies. Can't think of a time when I played DW at less than 1500 points, but my 21 terminators sit at 1130 points as modeled and leave me with a bit of space to get stuff on-table....like a couple hidden Assassins and a servo-skull wielding Inquisitor. At 2k 870 points spent on anything should be able to survive a turn.

yes im a bit vexed on how to proceed, overall the changes are nice but if only they left two things unchanged.
Allow Belial take Terminator Troops
Allow Deathwing assault turn 1
Thats it, two simple things and it would not invalidate my 3000 point army. By current FOC i cant even use Deredeo or FW land Raiders with DW :(
Also now instead of Belial tax we have ravenwing tax.
I barely ever play 2k points, average in my meta is 1000-1750. I didnt mind playing with 16 models at 1000 points, just because i have nice small box to carry everything in :).

Kinda interesting that I only got 1 reply on heresy but 2 pages of ongoing discussion on B&S.

venomlust 06-30-15 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 2167978)
but I will be allying in Guard tanks or BA drop pods to give myself a T1 presence for the DW to show up later.

Can those BA pods take teleport homers?

ntaw 06-30-15 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2168402)
Also now instead of Belial tax we have ravenwing tax.

At least the DA (let's face it, RW) battleforce is ~$95 CAD at the LGS I frequent....I might go down that route, but it won't be for long enough that there will likely be a new 'dex coming out anyway.

Not a single terminator of mine is painted, there's some work to do before I buy anything else. Actually, the only painted model in the army was one of my Mortis dreadnoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2168402)
Kinda interesting that I only got 1 reply on heresy but 2 pages of ongoing discussion on B&S.

What is this.. B&S you speak of, and is it just cannon fodder for comments or poignant discussion? Heresy slumps like this every now and again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by venomlust (Post 2168410)
Can those BA pods take teleport homers?

Bet your bottom dollar they can. Infiltrated BA scouts and drop pods with teleport homers should triangulate my DW assault just fine. I've come up with four different options so far out of my own collection with 3-4 more cooking up in my mind, eventually I'll get around to starting a thread for my Deathwing-Assist program.

darkreever 06-30-15 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2168402)
Kinda interesting that I only got 1 reply on heresy but 2 pages of ongoing discussion on B&S.

Well, I know for me, after having read the title claiming this is a tactica about how to use/play the new deathwing I was rather disheartened when the first section came off as whining.

I mean when you have things like: acceptable way to play, pay to fix, and make the best of it your not starting out to strong (in my opinion at least.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2168402)
Also now instead of Belial tax we have ravenwing tax.

Actually it looks more like a 'something other than deathwing' tax. Though depending on what you take, that doesn't mean quite so much. From a quick glance, the 1st company hammerfall assault force seems like a good deathwing-like tax. Just throwing a 2k list together I came up with:

Deathwing redemption force
Belial
Daethwing command squad
-Apothecary, champion, plasmacannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Venerable dreadnought
-Plasmacannon, drop pod, battle of Keylek legacy of glory-
1165

1st company hammerfall assault force:
Captain
-Terminator armour, burning blade, storm shield-
Terminator squad
-Assault cannon, chainfist-
Terminator assault squad
-3x Thunder hammer and storm shield-
Land raider redeemer
-Multi melta-
835

Total: 2000

Nets you:
Belial
Terminator captain
17 deathwing terminators
10 non deathwing terminators
1 land raider

You start with the assault termies and captain mounted in the land raider on the board.


At 3k I'd put in the land raider spearhead, taking two normal land raiders and a second redeemer, alongside a unit of deathwing knights, and then drop a deathwing assault cannon to plasmacannon in order to be right at 3k.

Seems like a rather fun list to me.

Stormxlr 07-01-15 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkreever (Post 2168618)
Well, I know for me, after having read the title claiming this is a tactica about how to use/play the new deathwing I was rather disheartened when the first section came off as whining.

I mean when you have things like: acceptable way to play, pay to fix, and make the best of it your not starting out to strong (in my opinion at least.)


Actually it looks more like a 'something other than deathwing' tax. Though depending on what you take, that doesn't mean quite so much. From a quick glance, the 1st company hammerfall assault force seems like a good deathwing-like tax. Just throwing a 2k list together I came up with:

Deathwing redemption force
Belial
Daethwing command squad
-Apothecary, champion, plasmacannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Venerable dreadnought
-Plasmacannon, drop pod, battle of Keylek legacy of glory-
1165

1st company hammerfall assault force:
Captain
-Terminator armour, burning blade, storm shield-
Terminator squad
-Assault cannon, chainfist-
Terminator assault squad
-3x Thunder hammer and storm shield-
Land raider redeemer
-Multi melta-
835

Total: 2000

Nets you:
Belial
Terminator captain
17 deathwing terminators
10 non deathwing terminators
1 land raider

You start with the assault termies and captain mounted in the land raider on the board.


At 3k I'd put in the land raider spearhead, taking two normal land raiders and a second redeemer, alongside a unit of deathwing knights, and then drop a deathwing assault cannon to plasmacannon in order to be right at 3k.

Seems like a rather fun list to me.

Well its hard to keep it straight when your one and only army becomes invalidated and they force you to BUY MORE MODELS YOU DONT WANT.
But what is this 1st company hammerfall strike force, as I see its from C:SM ?

Also did you see DW Strike Force , its literally has a rule (Summoned to War) that forces you to take RW. Otherwise you need to roll reserve rolls for your DW terminators. So yes it is an RW tax.

darkreever 07-01-15 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2169370)
Well its hard to keep it straight when your one and only army becomes invalidated and they force you to BUY MORE MODELS YOU DONT WANT.

Stop being overly dramatic, your army isn't invalidated it has just seen a few changes. So you lost the ability to make a moderately powerful alpha strike, its not like you have a completely unusable army now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2169370)
But what is this 1st company hammerfall strike force, as I see its from C:SM ?

The hammerfall assault force is a formation in the strtikeforce ultra dataslate; its one half of the strikeforce. The new marine codex has a modified version of strikeforce ultra, with different special rules (like normal terminators getting +1 shot to their weapons on the turn they arrive from deep strike rather than being able to run and shoot) but I don't think its a stretch that you can still use the hammerfall and skyspear formations from the dataslate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormxlr (Post 2169370)
Also did you see DW Strike Force , its literally has a rule (Summoned to War) that forces you to take RW. Otherwise you need to roll reserve rolls for your DW terminators. So yes it is an RW tax.

First yes I did, and second no it does not force you to take ravenwing. It gives yuou a very, very good incentive to take ravenwing but by no means forces you to take them. Once again stop being dramatic.

A sisters of batle CAD forces you to take battle sisters as troops, a Khorne daemonkin slaughtercult forces you to take possessed, a space marine demi company forces you to take three tactical squads. The deathwing strike force gives you a very good incentive to take ravenwing, it doesn't force you.


And again, with the list I put up before, you couldn't field something like that with your 3k army? A dred, four land raiders, and about thirty five terminators.

ntaw 07-01-15 10:28 PM

Just proxy the whole army out of the Grey Knights Codex :biggrin:

Stormxlr 07-03-15 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkreever (Post 2169458)
Stop being overly dramatic, your army isn't invalidated it has just seen a few changes. So you lost the ability to make a moderately powerful alpha strike, its not like you have a completely unusable army now.

You are right its not completely unusable just nearly so.
SM,GK,BA, iirc SW can make that moderately powerful alpha strike, you know what else they can do? They can simply start on the board.
Lets look at not so Deathwing Strike Force.
Can I field my army on the table turn one legally without begging? No.
Can I use any of my land raiders in the same CAD. No.
Do I have to buy more models that I did not have to/want to. Yes. ( Drop pods, Ravenwing)
Did I loose the ability to use my FW Land Raiders ( and Deredeo). Yes. ( No more heavy support)

Lets say that I take 5 Dreadnoughts in DP so 3 arrive turn one and 2 arrive turn 2. (thats about 700 points with upgrades, so half your force (not very optimal for 5 models either). There is pretty good chance they will be shot of the board with that low av12/10 before your turn 2. There is a good chance that none of your terminators will arrive turn 2. You can loose just by having no models on the table in turn one or two.
Most people dont have more than 1 or 2 Dreads. I have just 3.
If I recall correctly DW could be a stand alone force since something like 2nd or 3rd edition and every edition forward except Now.
Going unbound is mostly not liked and unaccepted in tournaments. Also shows poor rule writing.
And if you gonna bring up that you shouldnt play DW in tournaments because they are not competitive. Well I choose what I want to play. Except now I cant.

Ravenwing is a requirement if you dont want to loose by having your force not show up.
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkreever (Post 2169458)
The hammerfall assault force is a formation in the strtikeforce ultra dataslate; its one half of the strikeforce. The new marine codex has a modified version of strikeforce ultra, with different special rules (like normal terminators getting +1 shot to their weapons on the turn they arrive from deep strike rather than being able to run and shoot) but I don't think its a stretch that you can still use the hammerfall and skyspear formations from the dataslate.

Thanks for clarrifying that, now explain to me why can they arrive turn one while DW could do it for many many years before they arbitrarily decided they cant, compared to other codex that has a way to do it.
You can say you can use that formation, or rule but why do I need to jump through loops and hoops just to play my army. why do I need more than one book to play my army. Why should I buy more formations and codices?

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkreever (Post 2169458)
First yes I did, and second no it does not force you to take ravenwing. It gives yuou a very, very good incentive to take ravenwing but by no means forces you to take them. Once again stop being dramatic.

A sisters of batle CAD forces you to take battle sisters as troops, a Khorne daemonkin slaughtercult forces you to take possessed, a space marine demi company forces you to take three tactical squads. The deathwing strike force gives you a very good incentive to take ravenwing, it doesn't force you.

Interesting that you bring that up... So SOB CAD allows them to take their own basic troop choice as troops. Khorne and SM DC do the same. So why cant Deathwing take their own basic troop choice ( DW Terminators) as troops without having to take something thats not related to them?
What if SOB CAD required you to take IG guardsmen. Khorne required you to take Slannesh Daemonnets, and SM DC wanted you to take bikers? Guardsmen are not part of SOB, Daemonnets are not part of Khorne, and Bikers are not part of a Battle Company. Same as Ravenwing are not part of Deathwing.
Your point is moot and doesnt make sense. And if you want to bring up fluff reasoning.
Deathwing go to battle alone more then once. Latest Unforgiven novel shows at least 4 examples of that.(Defense of the Rock (central gate wall), Boarding of enemy ships(Anovels Flagship, Terminus Est, also they led DW counter charge mounted in Land Raiders)

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkreever (Post 2169458)
And again, with the list I put up before, you couldn't field something like that with your 3k army? A dred, four land raiders, and about thirty five terminators.

3k army? Are you kidding me who ever plays 3k games weekly? Thats absurd. Here no one plays above 1500-1750 even tournaments are no more than 1750. No one even plays apocalypse around here, and I dont usually see any 2k point game.


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