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Garviel loken. 03-13-15 03:10 PM

Should LOKEN be alive or dead
 
I'm a firm believer he should be alive and I'm glad he is. I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.

Also, his inner struggle is really interesting, to me at least. Seing an astartes actually struggle with mental issues is refreshing to say the least.

So what is everyone else's thoughts?

Khorne's Fist 03-13-15 05:02 PM

This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.

Lord of the Night 03-13-15 05:11 PM

151 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2067362)
His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.

I say that Tarvitz and the other doomed loyalists, like Solomon Demeter, Huron-Fal, Tarik Torgaddon, and that Apothecary that Eidolon murdered, they symbolised the sacrifice of the doomed loyalists. Loken is their revenge come back from death to haunt Horus.


LotN

Mob 03-13-15 05:21 PM

Loken's initial death was somewhat mishandled. Abaddon wasn't set up well enough to be the one to kill him (not that he did, but you know what I mean). It should really have been Horus and Loken should have been clearly murdered and betrayed by his father. Abaddon just wasn't a good enough stand-in thematically.

The other satisfactory alternative would have been Loken just being randomly killed out of nowhere to illustrate the horrible tragedy etc. Being crushed to death by rubble a Titan's passing dislodged was too mundane.

As to him not dying and coming back, I wasn't averse to it at the time (as his death wasn't very good, and him not being killed by Horus - who is really his personal antagonist, not Abaddon or Little Horus or Erebus or Tormageddon - means we can now close that circle later) but further mishandling of his return and the mostly (not all) underwhelming use of him since is making me regret it. Esp as we've had his confrontation with Horus and it was mostly just dumb.

Ultimately, there better be a point to it.

Garviel loken. 03-13-15 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2067362)
This has already been covered a lot elsewhere, in discussions that you took part in, but anyway...

His revival completely devalues the sacrifice of the loyalists amongst the traitor legions. His character and his alleged death symbolised them as a whole, and the portrayal of their loyalty being ultimately futile has been ruined by his return. I am completely convinced that this was a purely money decision, especially as his return has been singularly unspectacular.

I disagree that you have to die to have sacrifice

Vaz 03-13-15 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2067226)
I see a lot of people say "him being alive lessons his sacrifice on istvaan" which I don't quite understand. It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.

No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.



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SwedeMarine 03-13-15 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaz (Post 2067498)
No it isn't.

It doesn't devalue the death of the others. It just devalues the events in general. It is a poetic allegory.

One of the things I hated about Lord of the Rings was Gandalf coming back. His sacrifice for the party was real and emotional, but he came back as Mithrandir. Eh. Boromir, Thorin, Fili, Kili, Balin. Those are deaths which hurt to see and read. They're dead. Not coming back. They've been mourned.

Now imagine them coming back. And imagine their reason for coming back.

In this case, it is someone saying 'lets see how many sales we can get' pretty much. Nothing about loken coming back has anything to do with the story at large. We got the opening 'i was there the day horus slew the emperor'. Knowing as we do what happens, that gives you chills reading it

We get attached to him, then he dies before how we think it would have done. We mourn. We move on. We get new favourites; Raldoran, Sevatar, Ventanus, etc.

Then Loken comes back. It is your ex asking for a relationship now you've got a new partner. It's just not the same.

:goodpost:

Khorne's Fist 03-13-15 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2067226)
It's like saying the soldiers who survived ww2 would be better off dead, and that them staying alive doesn't mean as much.

Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2067714)
Nonsense. It's nothing like it.

If Patton all of a sudden decided at the Battle of the Bulge to change sides and joined Hitler, taking most of his men and butchering the rest, then it would be like it. But he didn't, so it isn't.

So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068042)
So if he did, the loyal ones who stayed with America all deserved to die?!

What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068082)
What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?

So like I said, if all arms lost, you believe the loser should just die.

If someone you knew was in the same situation of LOKEN and the suddenly returned would you still say"wtf man! You died a symbolic death, so go frigging die!)


So now do you see my point?

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 10:20 AM

You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.

Lord of the Night 03-14-15 10:32 AM

151 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068082)
The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068274)
You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.

You sir, are just plain rude

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of the Night (Post 2068290)
I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN

I can see the merits of that viewpoint LotN, but to me it only stands up if he had come back in the next book or two, not years later, after a couple of the writers pretty much confirmed he was definitely dead, and it's blatantly obvious that he was only brought back to sell audio books to fanboyz like the OP.

It has been handled extremely poorly, turning a noble and loyal character into an angst ridden gardener with a personality disorder, who may or may not one day return to the side of his primarch.

Vaz 03-14-15 02:23 PM


Angel of Blood 03-14-15 02:30 PM

I'm still with the others. I really liked Loken and assumed he would be the series main protagonist in a sense, that somehow he and others would survive Istvaan. So when he 'died' I was like, well fuck. And it really hits home just how brutal that betrayal was, that even Loken, loyal to the core, with all the beliefs and traits you want in an astartes, still dies, killed by one of his closest brothers. No one is safe, the betrayal is absolute.

And like others have said. Him surviving, just seems meh. I now read GiF, and whilst Torgaddons death still sucks, I see Loken get beaten and just sigh, as he somehow survives. It just completely took the tragedy away. We had Garro, Qruze, Keeler and the others survive the massacre. We didn't need any survivors on the surface. I don't buy into the whole 'Loken died on Istvaan, he's completely different now' because reading Vengeful Spirit, he's still very much Loken.

So yeah. He should have died. Him surviving quite literally ruined Istvaan III for me.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 02:35 PM

Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068530)
Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"

Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 2068602)
Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.

Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death

Vaz 03-14-15 04:22 PM

Those aren't really mental issues, if I'm honest. Those are just questions. Please stop making yourself try to appear better than everyone by trying to seem like literary connoisseur by wanting something out of a poetic ideal and turning it into a gritty reality.

40K is pretty much a space opera, if a simplistic one that boils down to background fluff for a tabletop game. The Horus Heresy era however, is much closer to that original idea, where nonsensical technologies powered by handwavium and unobtainium have less relevance to the story. Very few stories are about a hunt for a magic mcguffin, or anything, it's about the events that have happened. This is like Romeo and Juliet; a tragedy, as it were. Greek and Epic, and Shakespearean, but without the complexities that they have. It's a Space Opera for beginners. Not only is that indicative of "wanting more than just "DEATH"! (I guess you've forgotten the rest of the novel series; with the exception of shite like Battle for the Abyss or Damnation of Pythos etc; much of it was about telling a story about why the events happened that we know about).

Fuck, it's pretty much Romeo and Juliet;

"A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
Whose misadventur'd piteous overthrows
Doth with their death bury their parents' strife."

That's what people know; R+J, in love, then they die.

The parody, and play on that deeper meaning is Abnett when he's at his best, and not flogging versions of Sharpe or Pearl Harbour in space. The events that happened within that original trilogy have the hallmarks of those stories.

In that, we see the figurehead; Loken. He's our talisman, our compass bearing, true north. He's a brutal killer, an antihero, but one who recognises his role as a xenophobic mass murderer as a necesity. Little touches like hiding the compassion of the Astartes from the remembrancers enhances things like this, as well as their almost autistic dealings with the non-astartes when not in a combat situation. They recognise they are living weapons, but Loken is among the most human we have come across. He is our eyes and our view of the events are tainted by his thoughts, and we have an attachment to him, because they roughly align with our own.

People like Loken; everyone knows the SoH were among hardest mother fuckers among a group of hard mother fuckers, everyone knows Horus would attempt to kill the emperor, and everyone knows that the emperor is a corpse; whether he's actually dead or not, we don't know, but he's seen as that.

So "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor". We go into the book expecting to read about Horus Rising. Horus getting power. Horus becoming who would later destroy everything about the Imperium. And on the first line, we're shoved into end game situation.

By the time we get to the death of 63-19 we know exactly what's happening, and think to ourselves "ahah, you sneaky bastards, using our foreknowledge against us!".

Then comes Lokens death. Regardless of whether or not it was kept a mystery - and it wasn't (look at GRRM's books for mysterious deaths; people are seemingly just forgotten, like the Hound); he was dead. While we never saw the death blow, we got the fade to black moment when the hero proceeds to fuck the princess or gandalf falling.

We never explicitly saw his death, but the one thing that people hate in modern literature is deus ex machina; why people like Tyrion, or Daenarys are able to just keep plugging.

I didn't get to read GRRM before the HH, but I did get to read/see the Death of Ned before I learned Loken came back. That was an equally cataclysmical poetic event. In the grand scheme of things, a Captain of the Astartes being killed alongside the ~40,000 other loyalists I think it was who participated in the purging doesn't really make a massive difference to things.

But it's a personal thing. We've seen him "die". He was written out of the canon.

We spent years recognising he had died, and many, many books.

We've mourned his loss, lamented him. Made him a figurehead of what was good about the Heresy series, and we've learned to move on. People like Sevatar, Polux, Ahriman, and Bjorn begin to fill that gap, while cameos of our favourites like Forrix or Abaddon make appearances.

Then comes back Loken. And we're expected to feel the same way we've done again about him. A) We don't want to get attached because they might pull the same shit again b) we just don't care about him like we used to c) he doesn't actually do anything. His Big moment came and went, and he fucked it up (despite it not actually being in the script that Horus would be killed in Vengeful Spirit, from a non-metaknowledge point of view, he failed in his task). He's done nothing. The storyline hasn't advanced. He's not brought new interesting fluff to the setting, especially one that's dependent on him. He could have been equally be removed from the setting once more, and nothing would have changed.

Vengeful Spirit was simply nothing more than Graham McNeill attempting a double entendre with his title. Does he mean the ship? Does he mean Loken? Does he mean the ghost/daemon/dream affecting Loken? The non-corrupt brother who falls to Slaanesh in the end in a TOTALLY NOT EXPECTED PLOTTWIST THAT GRAHAM MCNEILL IS NOT AT ALL KNOWN FOR DOING AND HAS NEVER HAPPENED EVER BEFORE IN ANY BOOK (^TM). Or does he mean that actual, literal, non-figurative Vengeful Spirit?

Meanwhile, compare that to Prince of Crows double entendre, or rather, it's hidden appropriation.
@Garviel loken. (The username, and the person behind it, not the character), these are Primarchs. In regards to Astartes, please give me similar occasions when such a thing has happened.

The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.



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Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 04:33 PM

:goodpost: Very well put.

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaz (Post 2068642)
The only ones I can think of as being similar are Grimauldus and Mephiston. Mephiston being a pseudo-daemon, and Grimauldus being protected by some pretty solid foundations on a near fortress world; which may or may not have been helped by the Emperor's guiding hand. Not world ending weaponry launched from high orbit fired by Astartes under the direct command of the Warmaster, second only to the Emperor himself, while the Emperor doesn't even know what's going on due to the storm's affecting astro-transmissions.

Pretty much, only they only had buildings fall on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068610)
Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death

There's living through certain death. And then there's living through a city being REMOVED off the face off the planet. Whilst being in it. That isn't living through what is 99% chance of death. That's just utterly absurd. That would be like being at the impact point of Hiroshima or Nagasaki, only those weren't even utterly destroyed, so it's not even as bad as them.

If Loken is alive, then Tarvitz, Vipus, Rylanor and all the others should damn will still be alive as well. At least they were conscious and still able to move around. How should they be any more dead than Loken?

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 07:21 PM

Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father.

As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects:)

PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 07:23 PM

actually it says in legion of one how he survived.

Words_of_Truth 03-14-15 07:41 PM

Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, his return wasn't required imo.

I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble.

Not only that but we now also have another loyal Luna Wolf in the form of Severian, who is a lot more fitting of what the Knight Errants require.

In the end, I don't think Loken has added anything meaningful to the series since his return, his death on the other hand a lot more meaning, more than I think Loken's return could ever out-achieve.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth (Post 2068858)
Personally I loved Loken during the first books, most people did and I was sad when it appeared he died. However I think his death set the scene for the rest of the heresy very well, he's return wasn't required imo.

I think the return of Loken could have easily of been switched with the return of Tarvitz and it would of made more sense to, he had a much better way of surviving than Loken did by simply heading to the shelter Rylanor disappeared into. Loken on the other hand was simply covered by rubble.

Not only that but we now also have another loyal Luna Wolf in the form of Severian, who is a lot more fitting of what the knight Errants require.

In the end, I don't think Loken has added anything meaningful to the series since his return, his death on the other hand a lot more meaning, more than I think Loken's return could ever out-achieve.

Tho i think loken will prove to be the most influential character during the seige. It will be him that makes aximand finally see what his legion has become. His tale is far from over

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068834)
Death was the easy way out. Loken would much rather be dead, then alive and having to fight his former battle brothers, and former father.

As for how loken survived, well, the emperor protects:)

PS i dont want this to get into a big fight, its all opinions and i respect all of yours

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068842)
actually it says in legion of one how he survived.

Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.

I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 2068962)
Legion of One, does not explain how Loken survived a city being obliterated with him inside of it, not in any real for of cover. You can say how much you prefer Loken back all you want, you can argue why you think he should have survived. But it's just lunacy and naievty to believe he was capable of surviving what happened to the city.

I'm seriously expecting Tarvitz, Vipus and Rylanor to turn up as well at some point. Their chances of survival were much bigger than Lokens.

"It was here that he had re awakened, burried beneath the stone. Here that he had dug himself out, born on a single mindedness that bordered on lunacy."

Works for me

darkreever 03-14-15 09:40 PM

Dug himself out? Wasn't Loken pinned down and obscured, not buried?

And wasn't his rib cage/plate shattered?

Child-of-the-Emperor 03-14-15 09:46 PM

I agree with most other people - I think that Loken returning to the series was a terrible idea. I loved him as a character in the opening 3 novels, and his death capped off the opening of the Heresy beautifully.

The whole issue has only been exasperated by his incredibly boring portrayals since he has returned - not to mention the terrible suicide attack on the Vengeful Spirit in Vengeful Spirit. His return has thus far served no purpose, and I don't think he can now fulfil any purpose in the series which will make me think his return was worth it.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 10:04 PM

I suppose it is all opinion, tho i do feel at the end he will have served a major purpose, and he will die on the Vengeful spirit, next to the emperor

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068978)
"It was here that he had re awakened, burried beneath the stone. Here that he had dug himself out, born on a single mindedness that bordered on lunacy."

Works for me

How does that work for you? A Cathedral, fell on him, after he had already been beaten half to death by Abaddon. And once again. how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 2069050)
How does that work for you? A Cathedral, fell on him, after he had already been beaten half to death by Abaddon. And once again. how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?

The rubble of the building protected him from the bombardment. His power armor protected him from the rubble.

Also, rylanor may yet be alive. Graham mcniell hinted at it.

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 10:35 PM

From a bombardment that was ordered to wipe the city off the face of the planet? Horus wanted it bombed so thoroughly that the defences that protected them from the life eater virus wouldn't even be effective. And somehow, a building, that's collapsed, and not even covering Loken from the outside, as he can see the bombardment starting. Protects him.

What utter bullshit. Again. Loken lived, therefore I am fully expecting them to pull Tarvitz and Vipus back in, they'll probably join Malcadors Knights as well.

Words_of_Truth 03-14-15 10:41 PM

Knowing my luck Tarvitz will come back but be the first victim of Lucius's possession ><

ckcrawford 03-14-15 11:03 PM

Loken perfectly portrayed the realities of war, and especially the Heresy was played. I just don't see how anyone feels heart broken that the traitor legions fell to the ruinous powers after they brought Loken back.

The butchering of the loyalists is supposed to be viewed in horror and depict the insanity and warped minded state that the traitors fell into. It was almost as though someone was literally ripping his own body apart. We were all supposed to look in horror as those limbs that had become such an important part of that person and in this case the Imperium being cast down and destroyed. Loken, along with the thousands of other loyalists who were able to dig holes and hide, really take away from the tragic story of the traitors falling.

The Heresy story now seems more like the imperfect Imperium fighting the perfect Imperium, rather than perfection tearing itself from within.

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 2069050)
how on earth do you suppose he survived the orbital bombardment?? What's your stance on Tarvitz, Rylanor, Vipus? Hmm?

This has actually reminded me that the big questions after GiF came out was would Rylanor reappear in the series, not Loken. People unquestioningly accepted that Loken was dead, but Rylanor was last seen heading deeper underground, thus giving him more of a chance of surviving, never mind the fact that he was a contemptor dreadnought. His return wouldn't have been as laughable, and a contemptor striding around with the knights errant would have been way cooler.

Garviel loken. 03-15-15 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2069162)
This has actually reminded me that the big questions after GiF came out was would Rylanor reappear in the series, not Loken. People unquestioningly accepted that Loken was dead, but Rylanor was last seen heading deeper underground, thus giving him more of a chance of surviving, never mind the fact that he was a contemptor dreadnought. His return wouldn't have been as laughable, and a contemptor striding around with the knights errant would have been way cooler.

If i remember correctly, mcniell said he will be writing short story on rylanor...

Angel of Blood 03-15-15 01:42 AM

Knowing McNeill's flare for a shit twist. Loken as 'Cerberus' probably kills him somehow.


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