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-   -   Should LOKEN be alive or dead (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/black-library-fiction/182282-should-loken-alive-dead.html)

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068082)
What shit are you spouting? Where do you get that that is what I meant? Did I use words with too many syllables?

The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

Simple enough for you?

So like I said, if all arms lost, you believe the loser should just die.

If someone you knew was in the same situation of LOKEN and the suddenly returned would you still say"wtf man! You died a symbolic death, so go frigging die!)


So now do you see my point?

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 10:20 AM

You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.

Lord of the Night 03-14-15 10:32 AM

151 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068082)
The loyalists were in a no-win situation, but fought on regardless. This noble but ultimately futile display of loyalty was symbolised in the figure of Loken, betrayed and killed by one of his closest brothers. Bringing him back belittles that, especially as it was only to turn him into a cash-cow.

I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist (Post 2068274)
You, sir, are a moron. I'm out.

You sir, are just plain rude

Khorne's Fist 03-14-15 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of the Night (Post 2068290)
I understand what you're saying KF. But I personally feel that Garviel Loken did die there, in a sense. The man he has become now is not who he was, the trusting and somewhat naive Legionary Captain, the one who truly believed in Legion and Primarch and felt a little like what a real knight should be. Now Cereberus feels a lot darker, someone who has had his trust betrayed and won't be extending it again any time soon, someone who thinks that his and by extension his allies' efforts are futile and that all that remains is to make the darkness work for it's victory.

I say that Garviel Loken's original persona died at Istvaan and that symbolised, along with the deaths of all the other Loyalists (especially Solomon Demter whose death I found more poignant and heartbreaking than Loken's), the death of innocence and betrayal that sparks the Horus Heresy. Loken's return and who he has become is a foreshadowing of what will come, the same as the Imperial Palace becoming the Imperial Fortress, Dorn burning the Remembrancer records, Malcador forming the proto-Inquisition; these are all the beginning of the Imperium of Man we all recognize.


LotN

I can see the merits of that viewpoint LotN, but to me it only stands up if he had come back in the next book or two, not years later, after a couple of the writers pretty much confirmed he was definitely dead, and it's blatantly obvious that he was only brought back to sell audio books to fanboyz like the OP.

It has been handled extremely poorly, turning a noble and loyal character into an angst ridden gardener with a personality disorder, who may or may not one day return to the side of his primarch.

Vaz 03-14-15 02:23 PM


Angel of Blood 03-14-15 02:30 PM

I'm still with the others. I really liked Loken and assumed he would be the series main protagonist in a sense, that somehow he and others would survive Istvaan. So when he 'died' I was like, well fuck. And it really hits home just how brutal that betrayal was, that even Loken, loyal to the core, with all the beliefs and traits you want in an astartes, still dies, killed by one of his closest brothers. No one is safe, the betrayal is absolute.

And like others have said. Him surviving, just seems meh. I now read GiF, and whilst Torgaddons death still sucks, I see Loken get beaten and just sigh, as he somehow survives. It just completely took the tragedy away. We had Garro, Qruze, Keeler and the others survive the massacre. We didn't need any survivors on the surface. I don't buy into the whole 'Loken died on Istvaan, he's completely different now' because reading Vengeful Spirit, he's still very much Loken.

So yeah. He should have died. Him surviving quite literally ruined Istvaan III for me.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 02:35 PM

Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"

Angel of Blood 03-14-15 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garviel loken. (Post 2068530)
Tho it never once stated he actually died. Never. We knew Tarik died, it was clear as day, but lolens death was always a mystery and after j finished gif for the first time, I wondered if e truly was dead.

Like j said before, it's nice to see an astartes actually having some mental issues, showing that they are not too different from humans. I guess I want more then just " DEATH!!!!!"

Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.

Garviel loken. 03-14-15 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel of Blood (Post 2068602)
Really? Do you need everything spelled out for you? A damn titan brought down the colossal building he was trapped inside of, already badly injured, and then Horus ordered the city wiped of the face of the planet. The orbital bombardment would have been of unimaginable proportions. Yet Loken, without any cover, other than the building that fell on him, which didn't obscure his view of the sky I might add, before you try and call that cover from an orbital bombardment, survived. Without losing a single limb I might add, or ANY real obvious damage, I would have thought a note would have been made if his face had been burned off or ruined beyond recognition, which would almost a complete certainty considering his face was open to the sky.

So yeah, his survival is nothing short of laughable.

Bud its 40k there are tons of examples of astartes or even primachs living through certain death


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