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-   -   Professionals Entering Monthly Competitions (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/heresy-online-competitions/169601-professionals-entering-monthly-competitions.html)

Dave T Hobbit 10-03-14 04:28 PM

Professionals Entering Monthly Competitions
Some Heretics have indicated they do not feel professional miniature painters should enter the Painting Deathmatch.

I can understand their stance. However, I can also think of reasons why adding an entry restriction might be unfair.

The same possible issues apply to both the Conversion Deathmatch and HOES, so the fairest approach is to have a single rule about people entering the monthly competitions if they work in the same area.

The final decision on whether they are allowed or not will, obviously, be mine.

However the competitions are for you, the members, so I want to know what seems fair to you.

I might not agree with people, but I will consider everyone's comments and make a decision this month.

EDIT: After reviewing the discussion, professionals are permitted to enter the Painting and Conversion Deathmatches, and HOES, but voters are permitted to cinsider their profession when deciding on the "best" entry.

Dave T Hobbit 10-03-14 04:31 PM

To divide my Mod hat from my thoughts as a member, I am making a separate post.

Fundamentally, I don't see a difference in skill level between someone who could sell their product and someone who does. So, professionals don't have an unfair advantage.

iamtheeviltwin 10-03-14 05:10 PM

Speaking as someone who reviews and votes in the competitions each month.

Some of our "amateurs" paint and convert at levels equal and above many of the professionals that I have seen. If the "pros" were winning the competitions month after month I might consider it an issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I see no issue personally.

elmir 10-03-14 05:26 PM

I personally don't see the problem with it either. Many of the best work out there, was not done on a commission basis.

What difference does being a commission painter really make? I do commissions myself. The amount of work you get to do that really allows you to push your skills to the next level, is usually very minimal (client's budget usually is the hamstring). A really serious enthousiast probably is able to do more "cutting edge" work to improve his skillevel than a commission painter (who's main skill usually lies in being able to do the job FAST if he wants to make any money).

Tha Tall One 10-03-14 05:27 PM

Well, nobody should be excluded from entering a competition, whether you are a professional or not. There are some excellent painters who are not professionals, and who are sometimes equal or better than some pro's. You should not be discriminated against if you've chosen to make this hobby we all love your job.
The reason you choose to join however, I think is more important. If you're a pro and join the competition with the intention of gaining some quick and easy rep, to show off how much better you are than some amateurs, and to keep others from winning, I don't think that's within the spirit of these competitions. If you are so much better than all other participants, there's no sport in flaunting that each month. As far as I've seen, that's not what has happened.
I think joining the competition as a pro can be a way of saying 'Hey guys, you're awesome. I feel challenged by your skills.'
However, for amateurs that don't have a high skill level such as myself, it raises the bar significantly and might dissuade some people from entering. So while I don't think anyone should be forbidden from entering, none should feel discouraged either. I think the winners should have the courtesy to take a step back sometimes, and see what the lesser painters come up with. But as I've said, I don't see any of these problems happening here.

Khorne's Fist 10-03-14 05:30 PM

@iamtheeviltwin , They are not winning every month because none have entered before.

Personally, I am fully aware of my limitations as a mini painter, and that there are members on here much better than me. However there have been times when I felt I could match them, and entered the comp at the time. But I know I could never match a pro like we're seeing entering now, so what's the point entering if it's pretty much a foregone conclusion before a photo is eve posted? I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who would be put off entering in the future.

madfly-art 10-03-14 06:27 PM

Hi guys, and gals

I enter competitions to win titles and to compete with others, as their spirit intended
I enter Heresy Online competitions as Heresy Online member, as their spirit intended

It's not my responsibility to choose my opponents, it's their responsibility to do the best they can. Let me give You an example. I'm currently painting 6-8 very high quality entries for Hussar 2014 in which at least 3 of top 10 painters in the world are entering. I'm at number 296. Should i forgo the preparations? No, now i have 3 of the top 10 painters to try to beat.
You should do the same and don't judge Your work against other 'amateurs', judge them against 'pros'.

Yes i do take money for my work as a miniature painter, and there are many painters who earn in this respect but don't paint on such high level as mine. And there are probably from 0 to 295 painters who do the same that are much better than me.

Competition is a competition. Rules are rules.

SwedeMarine 10-03-14 06:30 PM

I fully understand that there should not be any limitation on who can enter the monthly painting competition. However just as Khornes Fist pointed out this is the first time that it has been done. at least to my knowledge. I enter the competition every month if i can to challenge myself to get better and because i feel like a little friendly competition s just the right way to motivate me to push myself that extra mile. Mind you it sometimes works it sometimes doesnt thats how things go. And i'm never upset about losing because in the end i gain something out of the experience. Losing to Nordicus or DaisyDuke or any of the other guys that we have is not an issue because i know that if i work hard enough i will be able to eventually get on par with their abilities and be able to beat them. But i also know that i will never get on equal footing with someone who paints miniatures for a living. Most of us do this as a hobby not as a major source of income. There is no denying the skill that is displayed by many of our commission painters and painting services but i just don't feel that they should be entering a competition aimed at the "hobbyist". If there was to be a competition for those who do commissions separate from the monthly deathmatch then that would be fine by me. In the end I will accept whatever the outcome of this discussion is regardless of how i feel about it. I enjoy being a member of this community and that fact that these types of discussions are around are part of keep me here.

Ravion 10-03-14 10:31 PM

I would like to know who these so called professionals are or who are people claiming is a professional. Other than that I don't have a problem going up against pros in these tournies. Just because he's a pro doesn't mean that he has an advantage against us. It's up to the forum members on whether they like the finished product and if it deserves their vote.

Mossy Toes 10-04-14 02:55 AM

I have no problem with anybody who wants to compete in this forum's competitions. If AD-B were to compete in HOES, would we kick him out? I have no qualms if somebody who is very good at painting who is a member of the Heresy community joins such a competition--sure, it means my slight chances of winning are rendered even more non-existent, but to the deserving, and to those who have put the time into their painting & honed their talent, should go the plaudits.

How would we define a "pro," anyways? If SilverTabby, longtime board resident who won a Silver Golden Daemon, tried to enter, would we kick her out?

I absolutely don't mind having greater examples of excellent painting to inspire me to aspire to. People who don't want to vote for pros, however they define a pro, don't have to; I maintain that the rules are fine as is.

(Edit: huh, this came out sounding a bit stronger than I meant it to. I mean, I guess it's all true, but I really meant to come across in a much more "meh, I don't mind if anybody wants to compete" sort of tone. Oops...)

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