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-   -   Daemonology (new spells!) (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-rules-discussion/154882-daemonology-new-spells.html)

whittsy 05-25-14 09:44 PM

Daemonology (new spells!)
 
I was having a wee little look at the new "Psyker Phase" and specificly the part that says "Models with the Daemon rule may choose to select spells from the Daemonology: Malefic spells". It then goes on to add that Daemons casting from this section cannot suffer perils of the warp on ANY roll of a double unlike non daemon models casting do suffer on any roll of a double. ASIDE FROM THAT - I've kinda worked out a BS style of game play one can achieve if playing as either Codex: Chaos Daemons mainly, or even as ANY team now allied with Chaos Daemons or even Crimson Slaughter to a finer degree. As these new 7th ed rules, even Imperial Armies can be allied with Daemons (wtf? I know)

ANYWAY, to my point: It is my understanding that as a Daemon (or not, just worked better with daemons) You can have 6 HQs as a primary daemon force (2 greater daemons and 4 heralds, lets use Tzeentch in this case) 2x Lords of Change and 4 Heralds of Tz. Have 2 or 3 squads of 10+ Pink Horrors, 3 Daemons Princes as lvl 1 psyker or better for your heavy support. This is your army, because technically speaking, every single one of these casters (even the horrors!) can now SUMMON MORE DAEMONS. You can technically speaking, summon up to 12 squads of 10 Pink Horrors in your psyker phase. It doesn't say that use units can't behave as normal, so technically AGAIN, these new squads of pink horrors can summon more squads (given your number of casting dice), now unless you're not summoning the horrors, they obviously can't summon more shit.

Here's the kicker, that's just primaris malefic spell, you can continue to summon blood crushers, screamers, or seekers, or another spell to summon a herald of your choice OR EVEN A SPELL that can sacrific your caster into a greater daemon of your choice, ie: your squad of 20 pink horrors (3 warp charge points) can sacrifice itself into a Lord of Change, if I'm not mistaken.

On another note, these summon units may also take instruments and icons of chaos for no additional costs. It also states in the other spells (to summon heralds and greater daemons) you can take 20 points of gifts for heralds, and 30 points of gifts for greater daemons. Your lowly psyker gets into shit, make him a blood thirster with a blood blade and axe of khorne. Sorted.

As cool as these spells sound, I don't think GW really thought this one through. Come the tournament scene, a simple 1000 point army can EASILY become 1500 point army in 1 turn. Then a 2500 point army in the next turn, and so on. How long until 8th edition because of this fuck up?

scscofield 05-25-14 09:55 PM

I was under the impression that they still perils on a double 6.

Other codex will suffer peril on all doubles when using those powers. Demons are being told they still only suffer on a double 6.

At least that is what I gathered, I don't have a book to verify.


The summoned models can't summon more till the next phase was another rule I think.
I also want to say that the primaris is a WC3. That is going to be a huge limit to spamming the spell successfully.

Mossy Toes 05-25-14 10:01 PM

Yes, you can create an obscene number of psykers. As you generate warp charge during the beginning of the psychic phase, at least summoned psykers don't contribute to your pool the turn they come in.

The fact that they are Warp Charge 3 to cast, mostly, means that you'll be throwing 6+ dice at them to make them go successfully, though, which has a pretty high chance of Perils that grows rapidly every extra D6 you add in.

The "Sacrifice" power which lets you summon a Herald with 30 points of gear (read: a Herald of Tzeentch with an extra mastery level) for the loss of a cultist for just one Warp Charge... that's going to be the real brutal, reliable force-increaser, I think, if you roll a few of them. Too bad summoned Heralds are ICs who are unable to join a unit of, say, Horrors the turn they come in, as the Psychic Phase comes after the Movement Phase.

What I haven't seen people dwelling on is the idea of a knot of Tzeentchi greater daemons and/or princes rolling several Cursed Earth powers for a bubble of rerollable 2++ (or 3+ rerolling 1s) invulns FMCs...

whittsy 05-25-14 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scscofield (Post 1741482)
I was under the impression that they still perils on a double 6.

correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741490)
The fact that they are Warp Charge 3 to cast, mostly, means that you'll be throwing 6+ dice at them to make them go successfully, though, which has a pretty high chance of Perils that grows rapidly every extra D6 you add in.

I did forget to say it is WC3, it will stop the spam, kind of. Going by probability though, if you have enough units and just throw 3 dice at it per psyker, chances are you're going to get 2 or 3 successful casts (This is with a larger army with 2 greater Daemons, 4 heralds + the pink horror squads and psyker DPs), its worth running the risk. It just seems to me that GW has thought of a cool idea to introduce summoning daemons, because sometimes the good guys think "fuck it, daemon time!" but I don't think they thought of the "Daemons doing daemon spam" - but then again, you need the models.

Mossy Toes 05-25-14 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whittsy (Post 1741546)
correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

Ah--think about psychic power availability. With Balestar, you're now paying 10 points more than a spell familiar for the privilege of losing Deny The Witch bonuses.

Still, certainly cheaper than a DP with 3 MLs. And can hop into, say, Termi Armor for the survivability.

MidnightSun 05-25-14 11:53 PM

317 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741490)
The "Sacrifice" power which lets you summon a Herald with 30 points of gear (read: a Herald of Tzeentch with an extra mastery level) for the loss of a cultist for just one Warp Charge... that's going to be the real brutal, reliable force-increaser, I think, if you roll a few of them. Too bad summoned Heralds are ICs who are unable to join a unit of, say, Horrors the turn they come in, as the Psychic Phase comes after the Movement Phase.

I really don't think it'll be a huge deal - yeah, eventually you can have a stupid number of Pink Horrors, but Pink Horrors aren't exactly game-breaking and Heralds of Tzeentch are kinda useless (how often did you see them without Grimoire in 6th?). Only being able to bring 30pts of gear makes them unable to pack a Grimoire or Portalglyph, so I don't think it's that impressive. Bringing a ton of Pink Horrors (or more likely Heralds, as 3 Warp Charge and a higher risk of Perils for most psykers isn't nearly worth 10 Horrors) but having to make Psychic Tests to cast them and being able to have it cancelled and being given an 'ok' unit at the end of it is pretty much just what Tyranid players have been able to do with 8 Tervigons since forever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741490)
What I haven't seen people dwelling on is the idea of a knot of Tzeentchi greater daemons and/or princes rolling several Cursed Earth powers for a bubble of rerollable 2++ (or 3+ rerolling 1s) invulns FMCs...

Alas, Blessings specifically don't stack. No multiple Hammerhand or Cursed Earth.

Vaz 05-26-14 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whittsy (Post 1741546)
correct. But say a Crimson Slaughter sorcerer with his item that makes him Daemon and the balestar to re-roll failed psyker tests.

Grandfathering in previous editions rules sadly sometimes has this effect. But at the same time, combinations like this and other synergies are what makes the game fun. Look at Tau and their markerlight synergy.



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loki619 05-26-14 01:36 AM

i played a game on sat and i wanted to really 7th it with a daemon csm army of tz and i was getting d6 + 19 charges per turn and by turn 3 had doubled my army in size including 2 extra greater daemons its filth it really really is

Mossy Toes 05-26-14 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidnightSun (Post 1741586)
Alas, Blessings specifically don't stack. No multiple Hammerhand or Cursed Earth.

Ah, true. I imagine that people will argue it given the "cumulative with other invuln buffs" sentence of Cursed Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the same Blessing. So to get a 2+ rerollable invuln, you need to rely on Fateweaver's native 4+, getting the warp storm result that buffs invulns, successfully proccing Grimoire, or rolling Forewarning on Divination. So... still pretty easily, honestly, in the long run of things. Especially if you take Fateweaver.

CSM can get a 3+ invuln with incredible ease with MoT, though. Possessed (with a CS DaemonSorc, I imagine), Warp Talons, and Oblits might be coming back in a big way! But do bear in mind that MoT can't buff to 2+, so other modifiers aren't useful there, and you don't get to reroll 1s. Still!

One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...

Ah well, DSing Warp Talons with MoT in reserve forcing blinding tests on multiple enemy units after getting locused in with a 3++ from Cursed Earth are definitely going to be a thing.

MidnightSun 05-26-14 09:38 AM

317 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741754)
Ah, true. I imagine that people will argue it given the "cumulative with other invuln buffs" sentence of Cursed Earth, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the same Blessing. So to get a 2+ rerollable invuln, you need to rely on Fateweaver's native 4+, getting the warp storm result that buffs invulns, successfully proccing Grimoire, or rolling Forewarning on Divination. So... still pretty easily, honestly, in the long run of things. Especially if you take Fateweaver.

At which point Fateweaver collapses on his T5 4+ butt and the plan goes tits-up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741754)
CSM can get a 3+ invuln with incredible ease with MoT, though. Possessed (with a CS DaemonSorc, I imagine), Warp Talons, and Oblits might be coming back in a big way! But do bear in mind that MoT can't buff to 2+, so other modifiers aren't useful there, and you don't get to reroll 1s. Still!

Yeah, you can get to 3++, but you could do that throughout 6th with a Skyshield and Mark of Tzeentch and nobody did it so I highly doubt it'll break the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741754)
One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...

Afraid I can see nothing on this under Conjuration. We've played it as Glide, since you haven't moved the minimum distance required for Swoop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mossy Toes (Post 1741754)
Ah well, DSing Warp Talons with MoT in reserve forcing blinding tests on multiple enemy units after getting locused in with a 3++ from Cursed Earth are definitely going to be a thing.

So... a hugely expensive unit of dudes who are as tough as 14pt Marines who rely on a random Psychic Power with a 12" range to be useful, the purpose of which is to cause a Blind check (which most armies will pass or not care about), and then charge people despite having no grenades so they strike last? I think that's a really awful plan, but if you can find a way to make it work then by all means enlighten me (I know I sound cynical, but I honestly do want Warp Talons to be even vaguely viable - them models and fluff are great!)


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