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moshpiler 03-06-14 06:09 AM

Fixing Sixth. What d'you think??
 
Hey folks, so me and my friends really do like playing 6th ed quite a lot but we have decided to make a few changes to add a little fun, colour, balance and well... sense. These are our (well, mostly mine really) humble attempts at fixing 6th edition and I request that you put forth an opinion, these did take a while to put together and I think there are some good ideas in there if I do say so myself. So without uhhhh.. further ado:

[Before getting started one clarification: due to GW's confusing terminology I'm going to use a new term here. Since units are basically all types of infantry or creatures, vehicles are...well, vehicles and Independent characters are... you know what I mean, the collective term for all these will not be the ever-so-perplexing “units” but uvid(s)]



Movement

Jump pack units can either move 12” in the movement phase or 2D6+3” in the assault phase (gaining Hammer of Wrath if they do). Models with the special rule Master of the Skies may do both and, if they don't run, this counts as one continuous move. [Bit of a buff to jump units and an opportunity to give some jump units (vanguard come to mind) a much needed edge]

Bikes (including Jetbikes) may only move at a 90 degree angle form their starting position (model-by-model basis) unless moving 6” or less in total that turn [it really didn't make much sense that they were so manoeuvrable anyway and there's a precedent with flyers now too].



Shooting

Snap shots make unit re-roll hits.[A more elegant solution, I believe, to the less sensical BS1]

A unit can't double up on snap shots (move heavy weapons and then fire them at a flier).

Throwing grenades is D6+3-BS” scatter. [Bothering too much?]

Template weapons accompanied by a distance (usually 3”, 6” or 12”) may place the template so that the small circle is anywhere within the specified distance from the firing model but with no other point of the template being closer. No friendly models may be in between the firing model and any point of the template.
[Lets be honest here templates needed a boost and the end goal here is to make it so a unit with the flamer, melta and plasma gun options will pay the same price for all three and there will still be a reason to take any of them]

Twin-linked weapons fire twice as many shots as a normal weapon of its type would and re-rolls as many misses as it scored hits (a hurricane bolter fires 6 shots at 18” but only scores 2 hits, therefore re-rolling 2 of its misses.
[more realistic and fluffy we feel, eventually costs within the codecies will be altered to reflect this significant buff]

Blasts and large blasts can target flyers but only hit if the middle of the blast ends up over the hull (not the wings, weapons, or tail) and counts as completely missing if it scatter off the hull [again, just seems to make sense].


Assault

Assault distance is D6+3”. [Less maximum distance, more minimum distance, overall a buff to assault we feel]

Defensive grenades make assaulting units attacks count as snap shots. [I know, snap shots and melee? Makes sense in my mind, we'll see about implementing this one]

Units embarked on a transport may assault on the turn they disembark if the transport didn't move that turn, however, they assault D6”. [I mean really, why did this ever leave?]

If you defeat an enemy unit in assault on your own turn, after consolidating normally you may attempt to assault another unit within 6”. Roll a D6 to determine the assault distance and, if successful, engage the new target. This assault is resolved during the next player turn, the assaulting unit gains no benefits from special rules or equipment (Furious Charge, Hammer of Wrath, grenades etc.) and the assaulted unit both benefits from any defensive special rules or equipment and may fire Overwatch even if that unit has already done so this turn.
[We think it's balanced enough and means that a gunline can be disrupted, but not necessarily broken, by a single fast moving melee unit]

Units arriving from reserves by outflanking may assault on the turn they do so and units with the Deep Strike Assault special rule may arrive from reserves by deep striking and assault on the turn they do so. Neither of these apply for ongoing reserves. [Some guys just need this one, we're thinking terminators as standard]



Vehicles

All vehicles get 1 more hull point than specified on their profile. [Maybe, vehicles do need some kind of buff since the stats against MC's is a bit off but we'll see]

Walkers make any grenades thrown at them count as snap shots (Whirlwind of Destruction). [It's either this or making all dreads AV 13 front and change costs in codex]

Vehicles have 4 types of weapons:

Main weapons must be fired first.

Turrets can always fire at full BS (Auto Stabilising Mechanisms) and are always Main weapons.

Sponsons can fire at a different target than the main gun but fire snap shots if they do.

And Defensive weapons must fire last and at a target one of the other weapons is firing at but at full BS and may fire regardless of restrictions on how many guns may be fired that turn (all vehicle mounted guns with a strength of 4 or less, unless otherwise specified).

The facing of a vehicle (and therefore the possible targets for each of its weapons) and all the targets of its weapons must be determined before any shots are made.

[Just making vehicles more versatile and reflecting the gun boat nature of many of them]


Continued...

moshpiler 03-06-14 06:10 AM

Cover Saves

There are 3 types of cover:

1. Light (forests, craters, shrubs, fences and other sparse or pliable hidey holes)
2. Medium (ruins, aegis defence lines etc.)
3. Heavy (fortifications, yada yada)

Each type of cover gives a penalty to the BS of any enemy unit targeting the unit in cover equal to the number in front of it (light is 1 cover, medium is 2 cover and heavy is 3 cover). So, for example, if a unit of Space Marine Scouts is shooting a unit of Guardsmen in a ruin (medium cover) the Scouts will have an effective BS of 1 (3-2), while the Scout sargeant will have an effective BS of 2 (4-2).
Any unit with at least one model in cover is considered to be “in cover” and the whole unit benefits from the highest save. However, if there are models in the unit with differing saves the firing unit may choose one of those groups and target only them (this is called focus fire), in which case the BS penalty incurred upon the firing unit is that of the target group (note that there is no obligation on the firers part to focus fire the group with the lowest cover save and that this also, obviously, cannot be done with models completely out of sight). Subsequently only models from that group may take wounds from that units shooting and any excess wounds are wasted.
For example, a unit of Ork Boyz has just moved into two different pieces of cover (while staying within unit coherency of course). Not all of them have made it though and while 10 Boyz have made it into a ruin and another 9 and the Nob are taking cover in a nearby forest unfortunately the other 10 Boyz are left stranded in the open. Next player turn comes and a nearby unit of Dire Avengers choose to shoot at the Squad of Boyz. From their point of view they cannot see the Boyz in the ruins so they have 3 options, they can either shoot the whole unit (excluding those out of LOS) incurring a -1 penalty to their BS, focus fire the Boyz in the open at full BS or focus fire the 9 Boyz and Nob in the forest at -1 BS again. Note again that whatever the Eldar player chooses to do the models out of LOS cannot be harmed by them.
On a model-by-model basis a model will always get the highest save from any given unit. If a model gets a medium, a light and no cover save from different models in the same firing unit, its save will be medium (2).

[I know this is a long one but I feel it will help tone down shooting slightly, while also giving benefits to any unit seeking cover (not just light infantry), being more realistic (bullets hit cover first) and hopefully more intuitive. It definitely gives it a bit more of an Infinity feel but I don't see that as a bad thing.]



Weapons

Melee:

Power Sword - +1 WS, +1 A (+1 more if paired with another ccw), AP3, 1h
Power Axe - +1 S, -2 I, AP2, 1h
Power Spear - +2 I, AP3, 2h
Power Maul - +2 S, AP4, concussive, 1h
Thunder Hammer – x2 S, AP2, +1 S when charging (before? doubling), concussive, 2h
Chainsword – AP5, 1h
Chainaxe – +1S, -2 I, AP4, 1h

[The 1h, 2h thing is shorthand for 1 or 2 handed weapons, which basically means 1h is your normal melee weapon which can benefit from +1 attack by having another 1h or pistol and 2h means that not only can this weapon not be used in tangent with any other but the model may not fire any shots on a turn it wishes to charge or fire overwatch][eventually we're gonna change the codicies to reflect this but the idea behind the power weapons is 10 points for a basic sargeant +5 points for every additional wound the characters who's taking it has on his profile]



Range:

Heavy Bolter – 36”, S 5, AP4, Salvo 4/2
Storm Bolter – 24”, S 4, AP5, Assault 3
Hand Flamer (or any other races equivalent) – template, S 4, AP 6
Flamer (or any other races equivalent) – 3” template
Heavy Flamer – 6” template

Continued further

moshpiler 03-06-14 06:10 AM

Special Rules

Soul Blaze: place a counter for every saved wound, at the start of owning players turn resolve as many S 4, AP5 hits as there are counters on the unit. [just making this guy useful in some way, also no need to use a separate counter per hit, just use a dice or paper etc.]

Negates Cover: this'll be a new one to add onto various weapon profiles within the codecies but will have a number in brackets next to it (1 to 3) that shows by how much a units cover save should be decreased for shots coming from this weapon. [a way to tone down some of the current ignores cover weapons out there and adding a bit of depth to the mechanic e.g. Serpent shield becoming NC (1)]

Slow and Purposeful: changing the overwatch part to read “may fire overwatch without making snap shots. [this makes a bit more sense, the whole “purposeful” part 'n all, and makes it not as bad a rule to have]

Stealth & Shrouded: these rules make it so that a unit gains an additional point (or two) of cover even if in the open. While they are not cumulative with each other [maybe, maybe not, remains to be seen if this would be too OP], they can add to the cover save the unit has from terrain or other effects. This can take a firing units BS below 1, in which case add another BS value next to the first starting from BS5 and decreasing accordingly. This means simply, that if a second value is present the unit must re roll successful hits with this new value. For example, a unit of Ork Boyz fires at a unit of IG veterans with camo cloaks behind a fortification wall. This means the Orks suffer a -4 penaly to their BS (3 for heavy cover, 1 for stealth). This takes their first BS value down to 1, adds a secong BS value of 5 and then takes that down by 2 more for a BS of 1/3, meaning that the Boyz will need 6+'s to hit and then must re roll those hits with a 4+ to hit. Brutal!

[If, say, that unit of Boyz had shootaz and were 30 strong, therefore making 60 shots, only 5 would hit. While it may just be a bit too much, a cap could be set at BS 1 after all, this would help further tone down shooting and put an emphasis on other tools in a players arsenal than shooting]

Specialist Weapon: a model does not gain the +1 attack bonus for having 2 one handed melee weapons unless they are both the same specialist weapon. [I know “nerfing the fisticlaws combo” but we're gonna balance these in codex anyway]

I wanna do something cool with swarms like make it so they can detach from the parent squad and attach to any friendly squad, kinda like independent characters that can't just detach and be on their own but I'm not too sure... what do you guys think?


Psykers & Psychic Powers

Thinking of maybe adding a little control to the tables, maybe something along the lines of “roll to choose psychic powers as per normal but can choose one of the adjacent powers instead”. Will probably look at balancing all the powers eventually or maybe just shuffle them around to make the worst and best powers per discipline 1 & 6 respectively, which would mean that each can only go to 1 adjacent power (can't go from 1 to 6 or vice versa). Additionally for every other power chosen from the same discipline (this is done before rolling for powers) you may alter the roll by one more, devied up as you see fit (so a psyker with 3 Telepathy powers can alter any of the rolls, in any combination, by 2 more) [is this confusing? I like it cause it shows that a psyker with a certain mastery of a discipline will have more control over what powers he gets, might limit the initial choose adjacent thing and make it only after choosing more than 1 power from a discipline]

Other than that just gonna add a trait for each discipline:

Divination (the big one) – on a roll of double 6 for psychic test, psyker suffers two perils of the warp wounds.

Telekineses – the psyker automatically has a free psychic power of warp charge 1 that lets him move an enemy unit, within 12”, 6” in any single direction in his own (the psykers) movement phase.

Telepathy – the closest friendly or enemy unit within 18” (excluding the psyker and his unit) suffer -1 to their leadership. If at any point, for any reason, this changes this effect goes to the new closest unit immediately.

Biomancy – the psyker has a permanent -1 to his initiative but gains the It Will Not Die USR.

Pyromancy – the psyker does not suffer perils of the warp from powers cast from the pyromancy table.



Deployment

Place terrain normally then roll off to choose sides. Once this is done both players start deploying their armies at the same time. At least 50% of each players army (each uvid counts as 1) must be deployed on the field (uvids who can either deploy in deep strike reserve, outflank, infiltrate or who must start in reserve do not count towards this limit). Once this limit has been reached, a player can declare their deployment done. Whichever player finishes deploying first also gets first turn. Units must be deployed in full, even if they have a special rule that lets them deploy separately (combat tactics etc.).
After this is done the player who has taken first turn makes his scout moves, followed by second player doing the same, with the same sequence applying then to deploying outflanking uvids (if not kept in reserves) and last infiltrating uvids as per the normal infiltrating rules. Uvids with the special rule “Master Deployer” may make their special deployment move after this order, although must still be in sequence with opposing uvids that have the same special rule and are deploying in the same manner.

[We're thinking that this'll make deployment a bit more interesting and tactical]

This is all we've done so far and would likely change the game dramatically enough as it is but, more likely than not, it will be added on to when we come up with cool ideas. So please, let me know what you all think about these any criticism or praise is welcome and who knows, maybe one day this could evolve to be a standard for people who want a more balanced game (I can dream can't I?)

moshpiler 03-06-14 06:12 AM

So yeah, I know it's long, I would really like to read your opinions though :good:

Fallen 03-06-14 06:50 AM

too many additional rules that take up space and are "rules for simply being rules" so therefore a lot can by nixed.

----

Honestly 6th I feel is rather balanced itself (assault needs to get a few bonuses) and some rules need to be omited or changed.

Most of my grief with 6th actually stems from the codexs and how poorly built they are internally.

Jonny B 03-06-14 07:06 AM

I like the idea of some of these (although not read them all yet) but others aren't great; a bike would be able to spin in any direction, you've seen them in the movies right? And I don't even use bikes so would like my DA mate to suffer this but I don't agree with it.

May I ask, how many armies/races have these been tested on? Would they hurt some more than others?

humakt 03-06-14 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moshpiler (Post 1608121)
Shooting

Snap shots make unit re-roll hits.[A more elegant solution, I believe, to the less sensical BS1]

I have not read all the rules, but after going through the first post I think this would basically destroy any army based on assault. If you charged a unit of say 10 marines, maths hammer would say you get 20 shots, of which maybe 12 hit. You reroll those and still get 8 hits. Against the shorter charge range you propose and the general lower armour of most horde armies you will need to get very close to ensure a charge is going to work.

Mokuren 03-06-14 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallen (Post 1608193)
too many additional rules that take up space and are "rules for simply being rules" so therefore a lot can by nixed.

----

Honestly 6th I feel is rather balanced itself (assault needs to get a few bonuses) and some rules need to be omited or changed.

Most of my grief with 6th actually stems from the codexs and how poorly built they are internally.

Most of the problems that come from 6th edition derive from awful codex balance. Tau and Eldar are a whole metric above everyone else and GW assured they're not going to make any other codex on that level, which means they've just been officially crowned kings of 6th edition and there's shit you can do about it. Better shelf your inferior armies and wait for 7th to come around.

Less dramatically, though, I already listed my own gripes about sixth edition and your rules... Don't really address any of them, and just add more rules for the sake of having more rules.

If you want to make sure assault gets a buff, don't make defensive grenades even stronger than they are currently and make sure that difficult terrain is a lot less of a "you lose" button you can hide behind: a daemon prince assaulting fifty billion conscripts hiding behind a single toe-tall pebble gets to roll 3d6 drop highest for its charge distance and attack at Initiative 1 because it doesn't have assault grenades. Yes, Move through cover is completely and utterly useless for all of this. Want to know the fun part? Beasts and bikes are actually not slowed by difficult terrain, even during a charge (so no 3d6 drop highest) but they better have grenades or they're OH NO INITIATIVE 1 too.

Start by fixing that. Then move on to fixing the way Eldar just spam jetbikes and win all objective-grabbing based missions and you can't do anything at all about it. Then we'll talk.

MidnightSun 03-06-14 12:34 PM

317 Attachment(s)
It amazes me how many people complain about Tau and Eldar. They're not *that* good. Strong, sure, but not game-breakingly unbeatable by a long shot. I've fought Eldar five times with Deathwing and/or Drop Wolves, and performed five wins, two of which were tablings. Tau, I've only fought twice but I got a tabling and then a loss on First Blood. Tau and Eldar both have insane issues with fragility that are very easy to take advantage of.

kiro the avenger! 03-06-14 02:43 PM

It's not the 6th book breaking the game... It's the codex's...
Tau negate all foot armies.... Heldrakes do too... Tau also negate any jump pack deep strike... Oh your whole squad just lined up for the PERFECT shot? Ok, take all back off thanks you...
Eldar just hide behind a wall... Then sprint grab all objectives and laugh as you plink of off their serpents or whatever...
You have to sink 200+ points for some armies to not just be tabled by a single flier! an assault army is not gonna get much from an aegis are they?
And again, far too many needless, and contradictory changes. You think assault is underpowered? Let's buff snap shots to hell and back! Then piss in their faces with defensive grenades and not buff them at all! Huzar!
I think your onto something with limiting bike movement though, but the no more than 90* thing is a bit much...
I thought about doing something along the lines of for every 90* it turns... Take 3" of off it's movement this applies to vehicles as well, this is simple and saves the more complicated but realistic thing system of BFG or dreadfleet IE it has to move x" before it can turn x*
Because since when can a truck turn 180* in an instant? The movies... That's where!


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