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40koverload 07-02-13 07:51 AM

Iron Clad (Dread) assault launchers
 
Hey you Venerables, help out a 40k Newbie, and Hello-I'm new here!

OK ICD Ass/laun ?
offers both Assault grenades and Defensive -Right codex pg103

Do Defensive grenades give me -SHOOTING-6th rule book pg62
does the Dread get STEALTH SPECIAL RULE Also ? -6th RB pg42


Many Thanks :grin:

ntaw 07-02-13 02:25 PM

Welcome! In short: yes.

Your dreadnought does have both assault and defensive grenades, and will get some sweet cover saves provided the unit shooting you is within 8". You also deny the +1 attack charging bonus which is pretty awesome.

Something I'm suddenly more interested in knowing is if assault launchers count as weapons towards a 'weapon destroyed' result from the vehicle damage table?

Xabre 07-02-13 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392081)
Welcome! In short: yes.

Your dreadnought does have both assault and defensive grenades, and will get some sweet cover saves provided the unit shooting you is within 8". You also deny the +1 attack charging bonus which is pretty awesome.

Something I'm suddenly more interested in knowing is if assault launchers count as weapons towards a 'weapon destroyed' result from the vehicle damage table?

I'm fairly certain that the Assault Launchers state 'the unit counts as being equipped with...' So I'd say no, because there's no way to Weapon Destroyed grenades.

ntaw 07-02-13 03:53 PM

It says 'counts as being armed with' but I still agree with what you said. There's no wild difference between equipped and armed that I am ignoring, is there?

Xabre 07-02-13 05:12 PM

well, the real question is less the wording and more: can you normally destroy grenades? Can you FIRE grenades? They're really not weapons, they're wargear.

40koverload 07-02-13 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392081)
Welcome! In short: yes.

Your dreadnought does have both assault and defensive grenades, and will get some sweet cover saves provided the unit shooting you is within 8". You also deny the +1 attack charging bonus which is pretty awesome.

Something I'm suddenly more interested in knowing is if assault launchers count as weapons towards a 'weapon destroyed' result from the vehicle damage table?

So would you say the ICD would get the STEALTH RULE?-thanks:)

scscofield 07-02-13 07:13 PM

Only if the unit shooting at it is 8" or less from the ICD.

Magpie_Oz 07-03-13 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xabre (Post 1392112)
Can you FIRE grenades?

Yes you can. Check Page 61. The assault launcher does now give the Dread another weapon that can fire an S3 blast out to 8 "

Xabre 07-03-13 10:01 AM

Huh. Interesting. However, even reading that rule, it still doesn't really feel like it's a weapon that can be destroyed, but still wargear with the option to forgo shooting for a specialized attack.

40koverload 07-03-13 02:23 PM

I don't think even GW knows, called them-they say its a given that the Dread has Grenades like scouts have in their profile-but the dread dosent have grenades in its profile-ONCE you purchase the option of a Grenade launcher for pts cost per codex-The launcher comes with Assault/Defensive grenades codex pg103-but gw agrees that the defensive grenades ability affords you the Stealth Special Rule always giving you + cover save out in the open (within 8inch) and + to being in terrain if being fired upon in the 8 inch range (I imagine as long as you still have the launcher)

Am I allowed to show these Values in this post? if not I will Edit out-its just hard to discuss games rules based on points/points cost and values without showing the #-But i'm new here and want to abide-so Please LMK and I will fix ASAP!

Magpie_Oz 07-03-13 02:56 PM

Probably better to leave the numbers out, you can just assume we all know the implications of being granted stealth.

Just to clarify you only get the 6+ cover in the open if the firer is within 8" of you, not sure if you meant that as your post doesn't seem to read that way.

40koverload 07-03-13 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1392451)
Probably better to leave the numbers out, you can just assume we all know the implications of being granted stealth.

Just to clarify you only get the 6+ cover in the open if the firer is within 8" of you, not sure if you meant that as your post doesn't seem to read that way.

Yep-It should have been conveyed to that meaning, but I kinda skipped over it-Ooop's!:grin:

Magpie_Oz 07-03-13 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40koverload (Post 1392499)
Yep-It should have been conveyed to that meaning, but I kinda skipped over it-Ooop's!:grin:

So what do you think?

Is this another "counts as" does not mean "is"

So the Dread counting as having assault grenades doesn't mean it can "throw" them?

If it can make a shooting attack with them by throwing, does that mean it is now a weapon ?

40koverload 07-03-13 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1392602)
So what do you think?

Is this another "counts as" does not mean "is"

So the Dread counting as having assault grenades doesn't mean it can "throw" them?

If it can make a shooting attack with them by throwing, does that mean it is now a weapon ?

Well the way I Understood it-it just gives the Dread the ability to launch grenades kinda like a scout does-Something you have to buy if you want to use grenades-but is not really a weapon -like popping smoke, what I like about it is having it gives you STEALTH Rules so you get Cover save, and a better cover save if your in cover. in addition you can use it when charging into terrain without losing charge points-or- use it on a squad about to assault you within the 8 inch and they lose their extra charge-If what I was told was correct :shok:

*just a reminder I'm asking you 40k masters-not telling-So I may still not have my facts right!

Galahad 07-04-13 12:57 AM

This is an easy one for me.
Grenades are weapons.
They are listed under the Weapon section of the main book.
They have Weapon profile lines where applicable.
A grenade is as much a weapon as a storm bolter is.
If a dread is armed with a storm bolter then that bolter is a weapon and can be destroyed.

The ironclad with assault launchers is now armed with assault and defensive grenades (and it does say 'armed' rather than 'equipped with' further singling them out as a weapon system)

Back in the day when grenades had no offensive power then they were basically just like smoke launchers, equipment and nothing else.

Now they actually can do damage. They have a weapon profile, they are listed in the rulebook as weapons. They are weapons. A piece of equipment that counts as a weapon is a weapon.

40koverload 07-04-13 01:41 AM

Clearly that makes perfect sense in this reality, but in 40k reality a sniper -someone with a precision Long range weapon and expertise skill -you would think a lot of training would be involved-has the same BS as anyone else-Ooop's sorry Snipers BS is not equal to SM using a pistol. But I rather the Grenade Launchers are a weapon choice-a weapon Fired-a weapon Destroyed.:whistle:

ntaw 07-04-13 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40koverload (Post 1392631)
Ooop's sorry Snipers BS is not equal to SM using a pistol

That's because the sniper in question is a Space Marine in training.

Glad to see some other people thinking they are weapons. I agree, Galahad. If it can shoot, it's a weapon on a vehicle that can be destroyed.

Galahad 07-04-13 02:31 AM

Well...in the IG it's typically the veteran and ratling units that get heavy access to sniper rifles. Both of those units have superior BS compared to regular guardsmen...and marines give their sniper rifles to raw recruits who aren't even full space marines yet so it's hardly surprising that they do not have superior bs compared to other marines. Every space marine started life as a sniper, so of course a fully fledged mrine is going to have the same or better shooting ability.

Plus the lethal accuracy of snipers is covered by the sniper weapon rule. A sniper rifle is so nasty because its user usually gets you in the vitals...if you're aiming for the vitals you're aiming at a smaller target and thus it takes more training to hit, giving them an overall comparable BS Someone with a sniper rifle can headshot you with the same ease as someone with a lasgun and the same bs trying to hit your chest...and conversely will miss just as often.

He can also do it from further away. Being able to hit a target just as well but from half-again the distance is a measure of accuracy as well

Also, that has fuck all to do with the fact that weapons are weapons and wargear that is a weapon is a weapon.

40koverload 07-04-13 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392640)
That's because the sniper in question is a Space Marine in training.

Dang! your Right! sorry my Sniper example went off topic- Anyways I know the ICD was released a few years back and it appeared everyone in my game store had to have one-when I looked at the model and saw the
launchers (as seen on C/R Land raider) most thought they were Armour .

that's what prompted my ? here-by now hasn't this come up before-anyone here played a ICD this way-I'm new to this-I cant be the first to ask-perhaps when an updated marine codex will have all this explained.

Galahad 07-04-13 03:59 AM

It doesn't really need to be explained.
Grenades are weapons.

Magpie_Oz 07-04-13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40koverload (Post 1392631)
Clearly that makes perfect sense in this reality, but in 40k reality a sniper -someone with a precision Long range weapon and expertise skill -you would think a lot of training would be involved-has the same BS as anyone else

One word. Vindicare. (BS8) :grin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392640)
Glad to see some other people thinking they are weapons. I agree, Galahad. If it can shoot, it's a weapon on a vehicle that can be destroyed.

It's even more than that. As the assault grenade shooting attack is a blast then it stands to reason that if a vehicle with an assault launcher or the Land Raider's Frag Assault Launchers has moved more than 6" it can't fire the shooting attack as blasts can't do snap shots.

I'd be talking all this over with my opponent before the game but by the new rules there is nothing to prevent this interpretation. No that I can see anyway.

Xabre 07-04-13 01:08 PM

See, this is why I also need to read things more closely... BRB Vehicle Damage Table:

This includes vehicle upgrades that function as weapons.

ntaw 07-04-13 01:29 PM

Frag assault launchers make the unit count as if it was armed with frag grenades, the vehicle can't use them in any way. At least, that the entry in my BA dex. That make any difference for you there, Magpie?

Magpie_Oz 07-04-13 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392766)
Frag assault launchers make the unit count as if it was armed with frag grenades, the vehicle can't use them in any way. At least, that the entry in my BA dex. That make any difference for you there, Magpie?

Yeh it means the grenades have a range of potentially 18" ! LOL

Seriously, though it is a stretch, the unit itself could be throwing grenades.
The launcher however does "function as a weapon"

ntaw 07-04-13 02:08 PM

Yeah, it makes sense. Just covering all the bases. It's pretty stupid to have something that provides BA with something every infantry model in the codex has to begin with. On the other hand, one more weapon to count towards weapon destroyed results.

40koverload 07-04-13 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galahad (Post 1392669)
It doesn't really need to be explained.
Grenades are weapons.

Throw a grenade at me-I'm dead! - its a weapon. however how this is supposed to work should be more defined and absolute , not bits of info
scattered between books hinting or leading one to believe or assume how it works-left up to interpretation-I get the feeling I will spend more time
debating the use of this with my opponent than actually using it. and I cant really point at anyone aspect to back me up-they will have to read
each page # between books to draw their own conclusion-like you say it should be a no brainer about this grenade launcher. Just my opinion coming into to this game-on some things a bit more information required-cuz theres just enough left unsaid to invite debate, you experienced members here have a bit of a debate of its use going on-so I would say its not just me. GW a bit less fluff and more nuts-n-bolts info in future books. I just want to play the game....

Magpie_Oz 07-04-13 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntaw (Post 1392776)
It's pretty stupid to have something that provides BA with something every infantry model in the codex has to begin with.

They are for your Terminators, the main passengers of a Land Raider in most cases, who don't have grenades.

ntaw 07-04-13 02:39 PM

:headbutt: It's been so very long since I put my terminators in my Land Raiders.

40koverload 07-05-13 04:05 AM

[QUOTE=Magpie_Oz;1392725]One word. Vindicare. (BS8) :grin:

Isnt Vindicare assasins Grey knights Codex Only? or can you have one through is it Battle Brothers? -I would like to know Thanks:)

Magpie_Oz 07-05-13 05:59 AM

[quote=40koverload;1392961]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1392725)
One word. Vindicare. (BS8) :grin:

Isnt Vindicare assasins Grey knights Codex Only? or can you have one through is it Battle Brothers? -I would like to know Thanks:)

You can take one as allies but it will only be Allies of Convenience at best

Galahad 07-05-13 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xabre (Post 1392753)
See, this is why I also need to read things more closely... BRB Vehicle Damage Table:

This includes vehicle upgrades that function as weapons.

+1 for that. That pretty much puts the last nail in it

As for the FALs on land raiders, I don't think those would count since they make the unit inside count as having grenades when they disembark. They don't really count as a vehicle weapon system any more than grenades models are already carrying would.


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