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mikehardez 05-02-13 10:36 PM

Vehicles and Cover
 
Hello everyone! I've been playing 40k casually for several years, but I've only just registered here today because I have some rules questions that could use the input of some experienced players. As I'm sure you can infer from the title, they concern cover saves being granted to vehicles:

1) Can infantry grant a vehicle a 5+ cover save if they obscure 25% or more of the targeted facing of a shooting attack? Page 74 of the BRB mentions that "intervening terrain or models (emphasis mine)" can fulfill the 25% requirement; I see no reason why infantry models would be excluded.

2) Page 75 of the BRB specifically mentions that vehicles do not automatically gain a cover save from being inside of area terrain, but what about when the firing unit is shooting through a 3rd unit as outlined on page 17 ("Intervening Models")? The scenario I outlined in my first question would make the infantry "intervening models," but I'm not sure if "the 25% rule" applies as this case is not explicitly covered under "Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets".

3) In a similar vein to question 2, what about shots fired through forests as outlined on page 102 of the BRB ("Cover Saves")?

4) Related to 3: the aforementioned cover save is applied when "if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest)". Does this mean their line of site has to go in through one border side and out the other? Or does a firer within the boundaries of a forest grant his target a 5+ cover save simply by shooting out?

I feel that these are important questions given the relative frailty of vehicles in 6th edition. 5+ may not be much, but I feel as though I need to take advantage of cover on my vehicles to the greatest extent possible; not being able to take a cover save could literally cost me the game.

Thanks in advance; I look forward to any replies.

Fallen 05-03-13 03:31 AM

i dont have my BRB on me ATM but i will try with everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikehardez (Post 1364580)
1) Can infantry grant a vehicle a 5+ cover save if they obscure 25% or more of the targeted facing of a shooting attack?

Yes, if the model being shot at has at LEAST 25% of its hull being blocked by LoS stuffs (Rocks, Trees, Trygons...) it gains a cover save.

2) Page 75 of the BRB specifically mentions that vehicles do not automatically gain a cover save from being inside of area terrain...

i was pretty certain that if you are in area terrain you get the cover save...at least for things like forests & ruins...

I also believe that if you are shooting through...i think its more than 2", but this might be a 5th ed rule... of area terrain (again trees/ruins) that they are deemed to be shooting through cover, thus granting you at least a 5+ cover save (since ruins are 4+ you would gain a 4+ cover save)


3) In a similar vein to question 2, what about shots fired through forests as outlined on page 102 of the BRB ("Cover Saves")?

it grants what whatever you are shooting through's cover value, so if its forests its 5+, ruins 4+, fortified ruins 3+, etc.

4) Related to 3: the aforementioned cover save is applied when "if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest)". Does this mean their line of site has to go in through one border side and out the other? Or does a firer within the boundaries of a forest grant his target a 5+ cover save simply by shooting out?

i believe that i answered this already.:laugh:

Im pretty sure that I have this right, but hopefully someone else can verify it.

DeathKlokk 05-03-13 07:43 AM

The model must physically be obscured by the terrain at least 25% in all cases. If the trees/ruins do not cover the vehicle, it gets no save if they do it does, regardless of depth of cover or who's actually in the cover (target or firer).

Magpie_Oz 05-03-13 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathKlokk (Post 1364649)
The model must physically be obscured by the terrain at least 25% in all cases. If the trees/ruins do not cover the vehicle, it gets no save if they do it does, regardless of depth of cover or who's actually in the cover (target or firer).

Or not. Page 91:
"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or
not they are 25% obscured."

DeathKlokk 05-03-13 07:57 AM

Don't be a Dickbag, Mag. We're talking about Vehicles, which do not benefit from that rule. (BRB pg 75)

Magpie_Oz 05-03-13 08:13 AM

Missed the Page 75 refernce, my mistake.

Sorry ....... shit head.

Azwaz 05-03-13 08:18 AM

Yeah, the rules for monstrous creatures and vehicles say that the 25% obscured rule takes precedence over area terrain.

It seems pretty clear to me that providing your models are big enough, you can take cover from them, just make sure they are fat people to get the most out of your models. I never thought about this, I'll be sure to make the most of it in future.

As for the forest question, I would just make sure that you and your opponent discuss the definition of that rule in advance. If you take it on face value it says something like "if the shooting unit has to trace its line of sight through a forest...". Which to me suggests that if its behind the forest, or in it... it grants a cover save to the target. but it does seem a little odd if they are in the forest but less than half an inch away from the boundary, shooting out. Maybe it would be worth using the old 2", or some variation on it rule as a house rule.

mikehardez 05-03-13 06:27 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Upon my first reading of the 6th edition BRB, I came to the same conclusion presented by DeathKlokk. However, after re-reading, I interpreted the text differently. Allow me to explain (NOTE: I'll be directly quoting the BRB here in some cases for clarity. If this is not permitted on this forum, please let me know and I'll be happy to paraphrase):

Under the section "Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets" on page 74 of the BRB:

"The difference from the way cover works for other models [non-vehicles] is represented by the following exceptions to the normal rules for cover:"

Before I get into the subsequent bullet points of that section, the wording in that sentence prompted me to read the general rules for cover as they are presented under "Determining Cover Saves" on page 18 of the BRB:

"If, when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on page 8) is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save."

OK. With that in mind, back to page 74 for that first bullet point:

"At least 25% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted (its front, side or rear) needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to be in cover. If this is the
case, the vehicle is obscured (or 'hull down'). If a unit is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 25% hidden from the majority of the firing models that are able to damage the vehicle. If a unit has firing models in
two or more different facings of a target vehicle, work out whether or not the vehicle is obscured separately for each facing, using only models firing at that facing."


So let's break that down. Obviously wounds cannot be allocated to vehicles, so that part can be discarded. Vehicles do not have "bodies" either (as defined on page 8 of the BRB); to me, this first sentence is simply stating that you replace "body" with the targeted facing of the vehicle. Let's move on to the second sentence.

The second sentence states the vehicle is obscured only if it is 25% hidden from the majority of the firing models that are able to damage the vehicle. This is an exception from the general rule in that normally, a model needs to be merely "25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer". So in essence, this sentence is simply explaining that vehicles aren't obscured by being hidden from the view of only one firer (unless that firer was the only model in the unit that could damage the vehicle).

With that first bullet point out of the way, there are a number of situations in which a model does not need to be 25% hidden to receive a cover save. As Magpie pointed out, one of those situations is being inside of area terrain, which is covered on page 91:

"Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

Great! Except that as DeathKlokk stated, the second bullet point under "Vehicles and Cover - Obscured Targets" on page 75 makes a specific exception to this:

"Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence."

So area terrain (unless it also obscures at least 25% of the vehicle) is out. But what about other situations where 25% obscurity is not required, such as shooting through a 3rd unit (page 18) or shooting through woods (page 102)?

While I'm uncertain on those topics, I can make interpretations.

When it comes to intervening models, normally, a model need only be "partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit" to receive a cover save. In fact, even "if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer." However, going back to that first bullet point about vehicle cover, it is stated that "25% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted (its front, side or rear) needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or models from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to be in cover;" this situation seems to be explicitly covered.

That leaves forests, which I'm still unsure about. Here's the text from page 102:

"Models within a forest's boundary benefit from a 5+ cover save. Similarly, if one or more models in a shooting unit have to trace their line of sight through a forest (because they're shooting at a model beyond the forest) then the model being shot benefits from a 5+ cover save. This applies even if during the game you rearranged a forest's trees around a unit - you just need to remember where the boundaries of the forest are."

I would interpret this that if a firer's line of sight goes through a forest at all (whether the firer is in the forest or outside of it) its target receives a cover save; vehicle or not.

While an exception for models near the border of the forest would make sense (as it was in 5th edition), I can find no such rule in the 6th edition BRB. Forests seem to be something of a uniquely double-edged piece of terrain in 6th edition.

Please let me know what you think of my interpretations regarding these rules. Also, if anyone can think of other situations I may have missed that provide a model a cover save regardless of 25% obscurity, throw them out there :grin:

MidnightSun 05-03-13 06:31 PM

317 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azwaz (Post 1364660)
Yeah, the rules for monstrous creatures and vehicles say that the 25% obscured rule takes precedence over area terrain.

Are you sure about Monstrous Creatures?

Midnight

mikehardez 05-03-13 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MidnightSun (Post 1364796)
Are you sure about Monstrous Creatures?

So far as I can tell, Monstrous Creatures no longer have vehicle-esque cover rules; they are treated as standard models for purposes of determining cover. Yes, this means MCs get cover simply from being inside of area terrain.


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