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Count_the_Seven 10-05-14 08:20 AM

Re Abaddon's boons - there are many references to his golden eyes and a glow behind them. I think he already has been rewarded...

CtS

Lord of the Night 10-05-14 08:44 AM

151 Attachment(s)
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Originally Posted by piemelke (Post 1915417)
In all honesty I find this a rather wild speculation, at the risk of sounding cheesy, but I am not convinced the "positive" emotions are weak and defenseless (do you have kids?).

No. Not interested in having any either. But I would say that in the context of Daemons, the positive emotions would be weaker. A creature born of compassion or joy for example would be incapable of defending itself as it's the darker emotions that are necessary for that, violence, rage, hate. A creature made of compassion couldn't hurt another living being, but a creature born of hate can do that and will. So in my mind, likely there are Warp beings being born from positive emotions, they just don't last very long in the tumultuous Warp that has been overtaken by hostile emotion-forms. Some older lore actually supports this theory;

Quote:

Originally Posted by The War in Heaven
Unfortunately, the raw emotions and collective unconscious beliefs of these new races altered the psychically-active Immaterium, creating their Gods and the daemons of Chaos. The introduction of these warlike and psychic races into the galaxy had the side effect of warping the Immaterium - the war, pain, suffering and destruction of the galaxy unleashed during the conflict was reflected in the Immaterium, literally changing its nature into that of the current chaotic and intrinsically hostile psychic dimension called the Warp. The innocuous entities which had naturally existed in the Immaterium were twisted into voracious and hostile predators.

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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor (Post 1915425)
The Chaos Gods also represent our hopes and dreams, as well as our fears and nightmares. Personally, I dislike the notion of positive and negative emotions - I don't think that makes sense. How can an emotion be negative?

When the creature it creates in the Warp wants to kill us and steal our souls, would be my answer. And yes they do represent our hopes and dreams, but in a twisted sense. Nurgle is the desire for long life and Tzeentch is hope and Slaanesh is our desire, but all three are twisted to such a degree that they become nightmares instead. The Chaos Gods are the darkest side of our emotions, our hopes and our dreams.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor (Post 1915425)
As Codex: Daemons tells us: Chaos would be "much diminished" without Mankind, but not eradicated. The gods feed off of all mortals, not just humanity.

But what does "much diminished" mean?? I personally think that if humanity were to die, Chaos as it exists now would die with it. Perhaps the potential for it to rise again should another warp-connected race like the Eldar or Humanity emerge, but the current Chaos Gods that are born of our racial psyche would wither into non-existence. Perhaps Slaanesh would survive, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were born from us, and I think they would die with us. And if they died then the state of Chaos would fail and Slaanesh would cease to exist, as no one God can exist on it's own.


LotN

Child-of-the-Emperor 10-05-14 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piemelke (Post 1915449)
In all the books I read never came I across (except for some references towards nurgle) a neverborn/demon/warp thing who seemed to be born from emotions such joy...
e.g. the khorne demon was born after a lot of people got killed by crusaders I think, e.g. mothers seeing their children killed. I would expect a similar reaction when those mothers see their children for the first time after having given birth, these aspects I never read.

It can be argued (quite convincingly in my opinion) that emotions such as joy come under the remit of Slaanesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by piemelke (Post 1915449)
Well it says the eldar were screwed the moment the first man killed, I felt a very stong bias towards human emotions, not solely humans, but if Khayon says the gods are us, I feel this implies mainly human ?

The gods are us. As they are every mortal race. We know for a fact that they are not just representative of humans. That isn't to say Khayon was wrong (even though he may not be the most reliable author) though.

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Originally Posted by piemelke (Post 1915449)
If the nids/necrons kill all humans that would mean over 90 % of living things in the 40K galaxy ?

Far from it. If all of humanity slipped into extinction, that would be no more than 1% of the mortal population of the galaxy. Probably less than 1%.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sadLor (Post 1915777)
In psychology, there are definitions for positive and negative emotions... but that's one of the most simple classification systems. I only studied it briefly but just check out the wiki on emotion classification for some of the complex (some overly) systems.

And LotN's statement that negative emotions are stronger than positive emotions has some truth to it in neurology. See Negativity Bias.

I've never studied psychology so I may be talking shit here... :laugh:

But I can understand how emotions can generally produce 'positive' and 'negative' results from a human perspective - in the sense of living in a harmonious society. But objectively, I don't understand how an emotion, in and of itself, can be good or bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of the Night (Post 1915977)
When the creature it creates in the Warp wants to kill us and steal our souls, would be my answer. And yes they do represent our hopes and dreams, but in a twisted sense. Nurgle is the desire for long life and Tzeentch is hope and Slaanesh is our desire, but all three are twisted to such a degree that they become nightmares instead. The Chaos Gods are the darkest side of our emotions, our hopes and our dreams.

Or are our hopes & dreams realised in pure form, our Id.

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Originally Posted by ckcrawford (Post 1915897)
I've kind of backed away from trusting the Chaos codex. Undivided has little to no bearing except a medium for the four major Gods. This dismissive part of fluff has me scratching my head. Because if the above is really true, and humanity were wiped out, then how would Chaos stand? As still 4 great Gods?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of the Night (Post 1915977)
But what does "much diminished" mean?? I personally think that if humanity were to die, Chaos as it exists now would die with it. Perhaps the potential for it to rise again should another warp-connected race like the Eldar or Humanity emerge, but the current Chaos Gods that are born of our racial psyche would wither into non-existence. Perhaps Slaanesh would survive, but Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were born from us, and I think they would die with us. And if they died then the state of Chaos would fail and Slaanesh would cease to exist, as no one God can exist on it's own.

"Much diminished" doesn't mean eradicated, we know that for sure. The gods also represent the emotions of other mortal races, not just humanity - your quote about the War in Heaven confirms that (humanity obviously wasn't around then). There is still some inconsistency in the lore concerning when and why the gods gained consciousness - most of the older lore implies they were more a result of humanity's rise, whilst the newer lore tends to cite the devastation of the War in Heaven (60 million years ago) as the primary factor.

The vast majority of mortal races in the galaxy are "warp-connected" and thus affect and contribute to Chaos. Humanity or the Eldar are certainly not unique in that regard. Humanity obviously contributes the most to Chaos as it stands, simply because of their numbers and power, but there will always be psychic species in the galaxy to sustain Chaos.

ckcrawford 10-06-14 04:54 AM

I wouldn't say Chaos dies with it. But I believe that the Chaos Gods would not be the great four for sure. In fact, I made a thread a while ago because I was wondering how the four actually work, and how they work compare to undivided. Here's link, the questions and concepts I used were kind of hard to really have a good discussion about I think. But if you are interested. A Closer/Skeptial Look at the Chaos "Gods"

But back to discussion, the idea of "much diminished," really makes one dwell. Can Chaos Gods break apart, separate? Get devoured by a simpler Chaos God?

PS I didn't make it red, for some reason when I bold it becomes red.

40kBookReviews 10-08-14 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckcrawford (Post 1916674)
I wouldn't say Chaos dies with it. But I believe that the Chaos Gods would not be the great four for sure. In fact, I made a thread a while ago because I was wondering how the four actually work, and how they work compare to undivided. Here's link, the questions and concepts I used were kind of hard to really have a good discussion about I think. But if you are interested. A Closer/Skeptial Look at the Chaos "Gods"

But back to discussion, the idea of "much diminished," really makes one dwell. Can Chaos Gods break apart, separate? Get devoured by a simpler Chaos God?

PS I didn't make it red, for some reason when I bold it becomes red.

I would imagine that if new gods can be created, such as the birth of Slaanesh, then it seems likely that gods can also be destroyed.
After all, the Chaos "gods" are not truly gods in the sense that they are omnipotent beings, rather they are simply entities of such vast and comprehensible power that "god" is the most apt description for them.

The current Chaos pantheon is, IMO, merely a result of a long power struggle that has reached a stalemate, but one that could potentially be broken if the balance of power could swing far enough to any one side.

forkmaster 10-11-14 12:31 PM

Just look at this thread! See how much discussions thats blossomed up which I haven't seen since like pre-Hardbacks was introduced to BL. Just wanted to pint that that out. :)

Lord of the Night 10-11-14 05:11 PM

151 Attachment(s)
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Originally Posted by forkmaster (Post 1922450)
Just look at this thread! See how much discussions thats blossomed up which I haven't seen since like pre-Hardbacks was introduced to BL. Just wanted to pint that that out. :)

That's because it's an awesome book, and it's virgin territory for BL. Everything in this series is either brand new or it's something that we've only ever read the Imperial version of.


LotN

bobss 10-11-14 05:47 PM

Loved it. No surprises here. Certainly worth the wait. I've already warmed to the new cast, and thoroughly approve of Abaddon's portrayal. Once again, the sheer volume of potential this series has blows me away.

On a more constructive note, as wonderful as early-gen Black Templars duking it out with the newly emergent Black Legion sounds, isn't there a lot of material to cover in-between? Saaay, the Black Legion carving out their own piece of the Eye, clashing with Sons of Horus remnants (wonderfully unusual and plausible concept, btw), the events with Mortarion and Magnus that've been teased... etc.

Is Cadiabowl confirmed for book two? :picknose:

Lord of the Night 10-11-14 05:58 PM

151 Attachment(s)
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Originally Posted by bobss (Post 1922858)
Is Cadiabowl confirmed for book two? :picknose:

Indeed. Book Two of the Black Legion series, titled The Black Legion, will cover the 1st Black Crusade and the epic duel between Abaddon and Sigismund.


LotN

Reaper45 10-11-14 09:39 PM

I really like the direction ADB is going so far. Instead of making chaos a diehard evil thing like the imperium believes it's just that chaos.


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