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bitsandkits 07-20-12 09:26 AM

10 dead at batman premier in denver
 

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 09:37 AM

-sigh- dead set guys when are you gonna ban guns?

bitsandkits 07-20-12 09:53 AM

death toll has risen to 14 and 50 injured, shooter is in custody



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tabbytomo 07-20-12 10:45 AM

You know when you could have actually done with a Batman type character..

Shady ed 07-20-12 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266823)
-sigh- dead set guys when are you gonna ban guns?

How will that help? I bet he didn't buy the gun at a gunshop.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 10:54 AM

and here they come, the same old excuses.

Serpion5 07-20-12 10:57 AM

I really doubt gun legalities would have made a difference here. The law only keeps honest people in line.

Given the nature of this, I feel it would be better place in WN&CE.

- Moved.

LukeValantine 07-20-12 11:01 AM

Banning guns only really helps when its a ban for everyone across the entire county for everyone but cops and soldiers with no exception (And even then it won't completely stop gun violence), but this only works if the government that does the banning is a stable and just government. As such actions in a impoverished country is just a means of securing power. (Not so in the states, by which I mean they can't claim that their a impoverished unjust nation).

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 11:03 AM

Are you saying Denver isn't stable and just?

OIIIIIIO 07-20-12 12:10 PM

Why should we ban guns? Guns do not kill people, husbands who come home early kill people. It is a tragic thing that happened, banning guns is not the answer.

That is the same thing as saying that people that ride motorcycles should be forced to wear helmets. If you ask a cop and get an honest answer from him this is what it will be " Every collision is a different set of circumstances, a helmet may help you or hurt you depending on speed of impact and velocity of ejection from the motorcycle."

Ben Franklin said it best "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OIIIIIIO (Post 1266895)
Why should we ban guns? Guns do not kill people, husbands who come home early kill people. It is a tragic thing that happened, banning guns is not the answer.

That is the same thing as saying that people that ride motorcycles should be forced to wear helmets. If you ask a cop and get an honest answer from him this is what it will be " Every collision is a different set of circumstances, a helmet may help you or hurt you depending on speed of impact and velocity of ejection from the motorcycle."

Ben Franklin said it best "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Just keep tellin' yourself that mate.

Serpion5 07-20-12 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266900)
Just keep tellin' yourself that mate.

Anything constructive to add to that? Like a compelling argument, a reason to ban guns?

Solid evidence that gun laws are to blame for this happening? An analysis of the circumstances based on the extensive media coverage we have available in BK's link?

Or should we just take your word that everything will be great once America gets rid of guns? :russianroulette:

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 12:31 PM

How many gun massacres have we had since 1996?
How many has the US had ?

what are your chances of being shot in the US? How about in Oz?

How many armed overthrows of the government have there been in the US? In Oz?

How much freedom does Oz lack in comparison to the US?

Apparently even wearing a motorbike helmet is some kind of impinging on freedoms?
What a joke.

Serpion5 07-20-12 12:40 PM

Questions aren't answers. I could look all of that up but you're the one trying to convince others here. :wink:

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 12:48 PM

Ah no I'm not , I asked a question and got the usual crap about how if people don't have access to guns it won't stop people shooting each other.

normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 12:54 PM

In the UK virtually no one has access to guns, it's difficult to get a licence and the actual guns you are allowed to own are highly restricted.

Hasn't really stopped people getting shot.

Serpion5 07-20-12 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266914)
Ah no I'm not , I asked a question.

Actually...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266823)
-sigh- dead set guys when are you gonna ban guns?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266869)
and here they come, the same old excuses.

You asked these and more, all to imply that gun laws are responsible. maybe no claims, but with no sources and only more questions thrown out as your viewpoint, what reason is there for me to take you seriously?

As far as I would know or care, the United States is getting along just fine for the most part. Shootings happen there. Guess what, Shootings happen everywhere right? Like I said, laws only stop honest people from breaking them.

If you had argued in favour of tougher enforcing of existing laws, or tighter restrictions on manufacturing and transporting of said firearms you might have a point.

But no, you asked why not just ban guns. Ban them. Period. Now tell me why that will work or your view is essentially baseless.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266922)
In the UK virtually no one has access to guns, it's difficult to get a licence and the actual guns you are allowed to own are highly restricted.

Hasn't really stopped people getting shot.

When did you last have a massacre at the pictures? or a school? or a camping ground? or a shooting on the motorway? are you concerned when you go out that you might get shot?

normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 12:58 PM

Not overly but it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. The only thing you achieve by banning guns is stopping responsible people from owning them. Criminals don't really care if it's illegal, they are criminals after all.

bitsandkits 07-20-12 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266922)
In the UK virtually no one has access to guns, it's difficult to get a licence and the actual guns you are allowed to own are highly restricted.

Hasn't really stopped people getting shot.

really ? there were only 38 murders with fire arms in 09 (gov figures) in the same year in the USA it was 9199 for a population that is only 5 times ours.

now slap my arse and call me Betty but i know which country im more likely to get killed in and im pretty sure those stats are like that because we have no guns, yes criminals have guns and generally they kill other Criminals with them, but if you have less guns your citizens get killed with them less. So here is an idea , dont ban guns in the US just stop selling ammo.



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normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 01:12 PM

As Serpion said, tightening of gun laws in the US may make a difference. I'm not defending their laws as such I'm just saying that an outright ban on guns wouldn't stop gun crime.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpion5 (Post 1266923)
But no, you asked why not just ban guns. Ban them. Period. Now tell me why that will work or your view is essentially baseless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266942)
... an outright ban on guns wouldn't stop gun crime.

Gun deaths per 100,000

Sth Africa 80+ Anarchy
US 10 Right to bear arms
Aus 1.5 Tight restrictions. 50% reduction in gun deaths since 1996 (broad based bans on gun introduced)
UK 0.4 Even tighter restrictions

Most firearms deaths in the the UK and Aus are suicides by gun owners. 90% of gun deaths in Aus are from this.

Varakir 07-20-12 01:12 PM

That is horrific. Without meaning to sound trivial of the other casualties, the 9 year old girl shot in the stomach is heartbreaking.

Guns really shouldn't be allowed anywhere. They are instruments of death, and nothing else. Vicious morons with no respect for life will always be the reason that innocent people are killed, but guns make it so much easier for them.

There's nothing else on earth that makes it so easy to eradicate life.

I can see why people are so protective of their gun rights when you live in a country where virtually anyone can arm themselves, and i appreciate we'll never get rid of all guns. But the fact that gun crime is much, much lower in comparable countries where guns are banned still stands.

Zetronus 07-20-12 01:18 PM

so you need firearms to defend oneself against firearms...

thats circular logic and utter bollox.

here is why you need to adjust ones attitude

Quote:

Local media report that six victims, ranging in age from six to 31, were being treated at the Aurora Children's Hospital.

The youngest victim was a three-month-old baby.
Gun culture.... it matters not if you want to admit it to yourselves - GUNS only have ONE purpose, having one means intent to use - but when one considers that life is nothing more than a cost of a bullet... its hardly a display of a civilized society.

If you think your right to feel powerfull in your pants is more than the life of a child then you are sorely SORELY lost in life.

bitsandkits 07-20-12 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266942)
As Serpion said, tightening of gun laws in the US may make a difference. I'm not defending their laws as such I'm just saying that an outright ban on guns wouldn't stop gun crime.

no it wouldnt and maybe the horse has bolted, but then again wouldnt hurt to give it a go would it



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Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetronus (Post 1266948)
so you need firearms to defend oneself against firearms...

90% of people who die in Australia from firearms are at their own hand by their own gun.

You are 4.5 times more likely to be shot if you have a gun.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...nd-killed.html

Serpion5 07-20-12 01:21 PM

Thing is, The US has reached a point where trying to change laws to this extent could potentially cause more damage than good. Tightening the laws may work, outright changing them won't, especially when so many citizens are already in possession of the exact thing you'd be trying to eradicate.

I'm too young to remember guns being legal in Oz in any detail, so you'll have to clarify this for me. Were gun laws regulated by state or Federal Government?

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpion5 (Post 1266951)
Thing is, The US has reached a point where trying to change laws to this extent could potentially cause more damage than good. Tightening the laws may work, outright changing them won't, especially when so many citizens are already in possession of the exact thing you'd be trying to eradicate.

That is the standard excuse. The above stat shows that "packing heat" is a bloody good way to get yourself shot.

A gun buy back program in the US would reap huge numbers of guns, why hold up a liquor store if you can get more money legally by selling you gun?

The big losers would be the gun manufacturers, unfortunate but you get that sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpion5 (Post 1266951)
I'm too young to remember guns being legal in Oz in any detail, so you'll have to clarify this for me. Were gun laws regulated by state or Federal Government?

Gun laws were regulated at a state level with the Federal Govt controlling imports. This is still more or less the case however the Federal gun policy was adopted by the states post Port Arthur and a National Committee on firearms regulations by state police.

normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 01:31 PM

Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?

Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.

The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.

Zetronus 07-20-12 01:31 PM

Quote:

...The big losers would be the gun manufacturers, unfortunate but you get that sometimes.
I wonder what there political campaign contributions buys them?

Serpion5 07-20-12 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266955)
That is the standard excuse. The above stat shows that "packing heat" is a bloody good way to get yourself shot.

A gun buy back program in the US would reap huge numbers of guns, why hold up a liquor store if you can get more money legally by selling you gun?

The big losers would be the gun manufacturers, unfortunate but you get that sometimes.

In theory this is fine. But you assume people want to give up their guns and will comply with this? Presumably a policy like this would have to be put to a vote first, and even if it gets past that you need to be able to ensure that it will be followed by all.

And that the Government will have the funding available to buy back guns on such a scale without screwing themselves over. Disposal would be a matter of selling the material elsewhere, but will they make their money back? With this in mind will they even consider this option if it turns out to be unfeasible?

Ultimately I won't argue if it is conclusive that places like Oz and the UK are safer than the US, but remember that this would be a pretty big change. Are you sure the US would handle it? You can call it the standard excuse but does this mean it doesn't matter?

Quote:

Gun laws were regulated at a state level with the Federal Govt controlling imports. This is still more or less the case however the Federal gun policy was adopted by the states post Port Arthur and a National Committee on firearms regulations by state police.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying that.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?

Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.

The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.


Sure people will still kill each other that is as old as time BUT you generally can't kill 35 people at random with a knife.

You can't mow down a crowd of people at a cinema with a knife.

Serpion5 07-20-12 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266965)
Sure people will still kill each other that is as old as time BUT you generally can't kill 35 people at random with a knife.

You can't mow down a crowd of people at a cinema with a knife.

Oh there are people who would manage this just fine. I know several of them personally. :wink:

Zetronus 07-20-12 01:43 PM

@normtheunsavoury

Don't be silly comparing gun crime to knife crime is a patheticy argument and reads more like apathy- (there no point changing anything as nothing will change argument)-

Unless they make a semi-automatic stabby knife than can be automatically thrown at a victim then Knives are a lot safer than guns!

and you get to cut your food with it.....

normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 01:45 PM

And you can't stop lunatics from finding a way, probably by getting their hands on an illegal weapon of some kind, maybe a nail bomb like the one used in a pub in Soho, London a few years back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Duncan_pub

@Zetronus. Banning guns isn't a cure for the problem, it merely masks the symptoms. You wouldn't treat a broken bone with aspirin, you can't stop murder by banning a tool. It's not apathy at all, the problem isn't guns, it's the people using them, if we at least look at the social issues that cause lunatics like this to exist then go postal, we might be closer to finding a solution rather than just putting a sticking plaster on it.

Varakir 07-20-12 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?

Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.

The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.

I agree, but you can run the fuck away from a guy with a knife. It's also a lot more difficult for one person to murder 14 people and injure 50 more with a knife.

Quote:

And you can't stop lunatics from finding a way, probably by getting their hands on an illegal weapon of some kind, maybe a nail bomb like the one used in a pub in Soho, London a few years back.
Gun is still much more effective and easy. I agree people will find a way, but guns are only good for killing people and getting rid of them is a good thing in my eyes.

bitsandkits 07-20-12 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?
YES
Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.
Yes because people have much easier access to knives, if they had easy access to guns we would get shot more
The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.
Yes people will still hurt other people but Shooting is a damn sight easier to kill someone than getting up close with a knife, I can be shot from many yards away and not stand a chance , but you come at me with a knife....you best make sure im dead.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.
Very true,but surely trying to reduce those numbers by really tightening and restricting guns or any weapons for that matter would be a good idea

Yes a gun ban in the US would be very hard, and yes it might be alot worse before it got better, but surely the us must be sick of this ? 9000 fire arms deaths a year???? i know there are more people in the US but 9000 a year??



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Zetronus 07-20-12 01:50 PM

@Norm

you are diluting the argument

we are talking about guns, not bombs or knives.

There is NO reason (other than farming / pest control *hunting) for a civilian to own a fire arm...

other than *security* - security from what?! oh .... another gun owner..... the gun manufactures have really got a lot to answer for in the states - they have help perpetuate such nuances and rhetoric that only the blind can see.

Midge913 07-20-12 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266905)
what are your chances of being shot in the US?

Your chances of being shot in the US is far less than getting into an automobile accident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266905)
How many armed overthrows of the government have there been in the US? In Oz?

seriously? There has been never been an armed overthrow of the government in US history. We had a civil war, yes, but you folks in Europe have had plenty of those as well. The only time we overthrew a government was when we kicked the Brits out.

To the issue at hand. Gun ownership laws are a one of the fundamental rights this country was founded on, right, wrong, or indifferent. I think the time when that was added was a point in time where the folks how started the American Revolution were afraid of any government, internal or external, infringing on the individual rights that they desired for the country and 200 pluss years later we are reaping the consequences. More people have guns, legally or illegally, and as such, yes, we do have more gun violence than other countries in the world.

However, this is what I will say to the arrogance you are displaying there Magpie, who the hell are you to tell us what to do? We have our problems, sure. We have gun violence, we have criminals, we have drug problems, but in all honesty we are no worse or better than anyone out there. I don't feel any trepidation walking down the streets of my home town. I don't feel like there are thugs with guns hiding behind every rock and tree. The problem with things like this is that they make the news. Sensational broadcasting, desirous of ratings, regardless of the picture that it show of this country on the world stage. These things are really actually, few and far between. The don't happen on a regular basis, they are a rarity. They just stick in everyone's mind because they are so devastating. As Bits said, most of our gun crime is criminal on criminal. they shoot each other over territory, drugs, women, whatever. Most normal Americans, gun owner or not, is not met with gun violence on a frequent basis. It is not the wild west over here despite what the International news media would like you all to believe. We live normal lives, we go to work, we pay our taxes, we have back yard barbeques. Us normals, live your lives no better or worse than anyone else in the world.

Are gun laws relaxed in the US? Yes. Would it fix things to remove guns from the equation? maybe. But it is people that kill people my friend, regardless of the tool that they use. Now you may say, "But midge, how the fuck would you know?" I will tell you. I work as a police officer in a city that has gangs and thugs that hate for no other reason but to hate. In the 8 years I have served in that capacity I have been to more stabbings, beatings, chokings, and assaults with blunt weapons than I have shootings. People are people and there are always going to be those that try and solve their problems with violence, regardless of the tool that they use to do so.

In summary, treating all American's like armed thugs, because your attitude says nothing less, is a fallacy. We have problems just like everyone else, the only differnce is is that gun ownership is central to the founding documents of the nation, like it or not. The solution to violence is a change in socail norms, one that human beings are just not capable of.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpion5 (Post 1266961)
In theory this is fine. But you assume people want to give up their guns and will comply with this? Presumably a policy like this would have to be put to a vote first, and even if it gets past that you need to be able to ensure that it will be followed by all.

Yep for sure a fundamental change in culture is required, and that is doable. I am old enough to have seen the difference in attitude to guns in Aus before and after the gun ban.

Yes the culture would take some changing but once you tip the balance you'll find it changes rapidly. I hear all of the same arguments above back in 1996.

I myself had 6 military grade weapons all of which I gladly handed in to the gun by back. I've not bought one since and I have not been held up or shot.

There are 270 million guns in private hands in the US. 88 people in every 100 own a gun. By and large the guns are small hand guns.

Guns quite cheap in the US so lets say $500 per gun (a massive profit for gun owners) equals $135 Billion.
$1.4 Trillion was spent by the US defending her interests in Afghanistan, maybe a bit of that could be used to defend her citizens at home?


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