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Serpion5 07-20-12 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266955)
That is the standard excuse. The above stat shows that "packing heat" is a bloody good way to get yourself shot.

A gun buy back program in the US would reap huge numbers of guns, why hold up a liquor store if you can get more money legally by selling you gun?

The big losers would be the gun manufacturers, unfortunate but you get that sometimes.

In theory this is fine. But you assume people want to give up their guns and will comply with this? Presumably a policy like this would have to be put to a vote first, and even if it gets past that you need to be able to ensure that it will be followed by all.

And that the Government will have the funding available to buy back guns on such a scale without screwing themselves over. Disposal would be a matter of selling the material elsewhere, but will they make their money back? With this in mind will they even consider this option if it turns out to be unfeasible?

Ultimately I won't argue if it is conclusive that places like Oz and the UK are safer than the US, but remember that this would be a pretty big change. Are you sure the US would handle it? You can call it the standard excuse but does this mean it doesn't matter?

Quote:

Gun laws were regulated at a state level with the Federal Govt controlling imports. This is still more or less the case however the Federal gun policy was adopted by the states post Port Arthur and a National Committee on firearms regulations by state police.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying that.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?

Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.

The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.


Sure people will still kill each other that is as old as time BUT you generally can't kill 35 people at random with a knife.

You can't mow down a crowd of people at a cinema with a knife.

Serpion5 07-20-12 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266965)
Sure people will still kill each other that is as old as time BUT you generally can't kill 35 people at random with a knife.

You can't mow down a crowd of people at a cinema with a knife.

Oh there are people who would manage this just fine. I know several of them personally. :wink:

Zetronus 07-20-12 01:43 PM

@normtheunsavoury

Don't be silly comparing gun crime to knife crime is a patheticy argument and reads more like apathy- (there no point changing anything as nothing will change argument)-

Unless they make a semi-automatic stabby knife than can be automatically thrown at a victim then Knives are a lot safer than guns!

and you get to cut your food with it.....

normtheunsavoury 07-20-12 01:45 PM

And you can't stop lunatics from finding a way, probably by getting their hands on an illegal weapon of some kind, maybe a nail bomb like the one used in a pub in Soho, London a few years back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Duncan_pub

@Zetronus. Banning guns isn't a cure for the problem, it merely masks the symptoms. You wouldn't treat a broken bone with aspirin, you can't stop murder by banning a tool. It's not apathy at all, the problem isn't guns, it's the people using them, if we at least look at the social issues that cause lunatics like this to exist then go postal, we might be closer to finding a solution rather than just putting a sticking plaster on it.

Varakir 07-20-12 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?

Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.

The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.

I agree, but you can run the fuck away from a guy with a knife. It's also a lot more difficult for one person to murder 14 people and injure 50 more with a knife.

Quote:

And you can't stop lunatics from finding a way, probably by getting their hands on an illegal weapon of some kind, maybe a nail bomb like the one used in a pub in Soho, London a few years back.
Gun is still much more effective and easy. I agree people will find a way, but guns are only good for killing people and getting rid of them is a good thing in my eyes.

bitsandkits 07-20-12 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury (Post 1266958)
Thinking about it, is comparing the UK vs. US a good comparison?
YES
Sure, in the UK guns are difficult to get hold of but gun crime still exists, you're just more likely to get stabbed.
Yes because people have much easier access to knives, if they had easy access to guns we would get shot more
The problem isn't so much about gun control, if the US bans guns, gun crime will go down, they'll just stab each other like we do in the UK. If you ban mobile phones, mobile phone thefts will drop to zero, theft won't.
Yes people will still hurt other people but Shooting is a damn sight easier to kill someone than getting up close with a knife, I can be shot from many yards away and not stand a chance , but you come at me with a knife....you best make sure im dead.

The problem is more a social issue than anything else, it doesn't really matter what people are killing each other with, take everything else away and people will beat each other to death with rocks if they have to.
Very true,but surely trying to reduce those numbers by really tightening and restricting guns or any weapons for that matter would be a good idea

Yes a gun ban in the US would be very hard, and yes it might be alot worse before it got better, but surely the us must be sick of this ? 9000 fire arms deaths a year???? i know there are more people in the US but 9000 a year??



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Zetronus 07-20-12 01:50 PM

@Norm

you are diluting the argument

we are talking about guns, not bombs or knives.

There is NO reason (other than farming / pest control *hunting) for a civilian to own a fire arm...

other than *security* - security from what?! oh .... another gun owner..... the gun manufactures have really got a lot to answer for in the states - they have help perpetuate such nuances and rhetoric that only the blind can see.

Midge913 07-20-12 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266905)
what are your chances of being shot in the US?

Your chances of being shot in the US is far less than getting into an automobile accident.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz (Post 1266905)
How many armed overthrows of the government have there been in the US? In Oz?

seriously? There has been never been an armed overthrow of the government in US history. We had a civil war, yes, but you folks in Europe have had plenty of those as well. The only time we overthrew a government was when we kicked the Brits out.

To the issue at hand. Gun ownership laws are a one of the fundamental rights this country was founded on, right, wrong, or indifferent. I think the time when that was added was a point in time where the folks how started the American Revolution were afraid of any government, internal or external, infringing on the individual rights that they desired for the country and 200 pluss years later we are reaping the consequences. More people have guns, legally or illegally, and as such, yes, we do have more gun violence than other countries in the world.

However, this is what I will say to the arrogance you are displaying there Magpie, who the hell are you to tell us what to do? We have our problems, sure. We have gun violence, we have criminals, we have drug problems, but in all honesty we are no worse or better than anyone out there. I don't feel any trepidation walking down the streets of my home town. I don't feel like there are thugs with guns hiding behind every rock and tree. The problem with things like this is that they make the news. Sensational broadcasting, desirous of ratings, regardless of the picture that it show of this country on the world stage. These things are really actually, few and far between. The don't happen on a regular basis, they are a rarity. They just stick in everyone's mind because they are so devastating. As Bits said, most of our gun crime is criminal on criminal. they shoot each other over territory, drugs, women, whatever. Most normal Americans, gun owner or not, is not met with gun violence on a frequent basis. It is not the wild west over here despite what the International news media would like you all to believe. We live normal lives, we go to work, we pay our taxes, we have back yard barbeques. Us normals, live your lives no better or worse than anyone else in the world.

Are gun laws relaxed in the US? Yes. Would it fix things to remove guns from the equation? maybe. But it is people that kill people my friend, regardless of the tool that they use. Now you may say, "But midge, how the fuck would you know?" I will tell you. I work as a police officer in a city that has gangs and thugs that hate for no other reason but to hate. In the 8 years I have served in that capacity I have been to more stabbings, beatings, chokings, and assaults with blunt weapons than I have shootings. People are people and there are always going to be those that try and solve their problems with violence, regardless of the tool that they use to do so.

In summary, treating all American's like armed thugs, because your attitude says nothing less, is a fallacy. We have problems just like everyone else, the only differnce is is that gun ownership is central to the founding documents of the nation, like it or not. The solution to violence is a change in socail norms, one that human beings are just not capable of.

Magpie_Oz 07-20-12 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Serpion5 (Post 1266961)
In theory this is fine. But you assume people want to give up their guns and will comply with this? Presumably a policy like this would have to be put to a vote first, and even if it gets past that you need to be able to ensure that it will be followed by all.

Yep for sure a fundamental change in culture is required, and that is doable. I am old enough to have seen the difference in attitude to guns in Aus before and after the gun ban.

Yes the culture would take some changing but once you tip the balance you'll find it changes rapidly. I hear all of the same arguments above back in 1996.

I myself had 6 military grade weapons all of which I gladly handed in to the gun by back. I've not bought one since and I have not been held up or shot.

There are 270 million guns in private hands in the US. 88 people in every 100 own a gun. By and large the guns are small hand guns.

Guns quite cheap in the US so lets say $500 per gun (a massive profit for gun owners) equals $135 Billion.
$1.4 Trillion was spent by the US defending her interests in Afghanistan, maybe a bit of that could be used to defend her citizens at home?


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