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-   -   Mawloc vs Zooming Flyers (https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/40k-rules-discussion/114125-mawloc-vs-zooming-flyers.html)

Zion 07-14-12 04:45 PM

Mawloc vs Zooming Flyers
 
2 Attachment(s)
I've been putting some thought into this because it seems like really big thing for GW not to notice and I've come to a conclusion:

The Mawloc's Terror from the Deep attack can't hit zooming flyers.

This actually has nothing to do with the "blast marker" being a "blast template" but instead with a couple of rules and a bit from the Tyranid FAQ.

Firstly, what kind of attack is the Mawloc's TFtD? It's a shooting attack? Why? Well let me quote the FAQ first as it's essential to my point of view on this:
Quote:

Q: Can I take cover saves from the Mawloc's Terror From the Deep attack? (pg. 51)
A: Yes
As many may recall, cover saves can only be taken against shooting attacks, not close combat attacks. So since it's a shooting attack we take a look in the main rulebook at the rules for shooting at a flyer:

Quote:

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unles the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule as described on page 42). Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode.
-Page 81 of the 6th Edition Rulebook
Did you catch that? Shooting attacks that are made by models or with weapons without the Skyfire rule are resolves as Snap Shots. And since the Mawloc doesn't have the Skyfire rule we move onto Snap Shots (don't worry, I'm only going to quote the part related to this whole thing):

Quote:

It's important to note that any shooting attack that does not use a Ballistic Skill - such as the Necron Monolith's portal of exile - cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot.
-Except from "Snap Shots", Page 13 of the 6th Edtion Rulebook
So, as the Mawloc does not roll to hit against models that are touching the Large Blast Marker for the Terror From the Deep attack, the Mawloc can not hit Zooming Flyers.

At least this is my understanding of the rules.

Ragewind 07-14-12 04:50 PM

There is no roll to hit so you would ignore any reference to Ballistic Skill or Snap Shots so yes it will hit a flyer that is under the template, it is also not a "template/blast" weapon and so ignores any relevant rules applying to them. This is just a effect that happens, similar to Yirel's Eye of Wrath.

This is under the same vein as a Necron's Death Ray or a Vibro Cannon's line effect, no roll to hit means flyers auto get gimped. Obviously you get cover saves, that is what Jink is for after all.

Zion 07-14-12 04:57 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragewind (Post 1262323)
There is no roll to hit so you would ignore any reference to Ballistic Skill or Snap Shots so yes it will hit a flyer that is under the template, it is also not a "template/blast" weapon and so ignores any relevant rules applying to them. This is just a effect that happens, similar to Yirel's Eye of Wrath.

This is under the same vein as a Necron's Death Ray or a Vibro Cannon's line effect, no roll to hit means flyers auto get gimped. Obviously you get cover saves, that is what Jink is for after all.

Except Snap Shots specifically say shooting attacks that don't us BS can't be snap shot and can't be used against Zooming Flyers (unless you Skyfire them but the Mawloc doesn't have that rule).

As I said, my opinion has nothing to do with the template but with the fact that the attacck doesn't roll to hit and the Mawloc lacking Skyfire. It's an interaction between several rules, not just the Shooting at Flyers rules.

Tim/Steve 07-14-12 05:07 PM

"Shots at..."
Terror from the deep isn't a shot and it isn't a blast/large blast weapon: its an untargeted shooting attack. As such it doesn't need to snap fire because it isn't targeting the flier... and unlike other blasts which might scatter onto the flier can still hurt it because it isn't a blast/large blast weapon.

Capussa 07-14-12 05:18 PM

Fluff wise I agree with Zion's take.

The Mawloc bursts up from the ground causing havoc to those around this point on the ground, therefore it should not be able to hit anything that is not at or near ground level.

As i don't have the tyranid codex I cannot coment on the rules, but it seems wrong to me that an attack that is meant to represent something burstsing from the ground can hit a flyer.

Zion 07-14-12 05:21 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 1262333)
"Shots at..."
Terror from the deep isn't a shot and it isn't a blast/large blast weapon: its an untargeted shooting attack. As such it doesn't need to snap fire because it isn't targeting the flier... and unlike other blasts which might scatter onto the flier can still hurt it because it isn't a blast/large blast weapon.

Again, I never used the template/marker arguement. My entire point can be summed up thusly: Any shooting attacks resolved against a zooming flyer by a model without the Skyfire rule are resolved as Snap Shots, and shooting attacks that auto-hit (such as the Portal of Exile) can't be Snap Shot. Terror From the Deep auto-hits against models touching the marker thus can't affect Zooming Flyers since the Mawloc lacks the Skyfire special rule AND the attack can not be resolved as a snap shot.

Yes the Mawloc should normally auto-hit against everything else but I personally believe that because the way the rules for resolving shooting attacks versus a zooming flyer works it can't hit the zooming flyer.

Now can we stop trying to counter THAT point with a point about it being a "marker" not a "template"? It could be a cheeseburger, the issue is that it doesn't roll to hit, thus can't resolve against the Zooming Flyer.

I'm open to people picking my logic apart, but actually address what I'm saying, not what the conventional arguement is.

Archaon18 07-14-12 07:20 PM

Quote:

Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit flyers in zoom mode
There is your answer, It is a L. Blast so cannot hit it. Note this comes after the bit about the 'can only be resolved as snap shots thing'.

Ragewind 07-14-12 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaon18 (Post 1262419)
There is your answer, It is a L. Blast so cannot hit it. Note this comes after the bit about the 'can only be resolved as snap shots thing'.

I should point out that the rule "Terror from the Deep" is not a Blast Weapon and is not affected by that rule.

Ragewind 07-14-12 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim/Steve (Post 1262333)
"Shots at..."
Terror from the deep isn't a shot and it isn't a blast/large blast weapon: its an untargeted shooting attack. As such it doesn't need to snap fire because it isn't targeting the flier... and unlike other blasts which might scatter onto the flier can still hurt it because it isn't a blast/large blast weapon.

This is the correct argument

Zion 07-14-12 08:05 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragewind (Post 1262433)
This is the correct argument

The Necron Monolith Portal of Exile is also an untargetted shooting attack that affects all models within D6" of the Monolith's door and is forbidden from being used in situations where you would need to snap shot. So I would say, no, it's not.

It's not a matter of if the marker TARGETS the Zooming Flyer but how hits are RESOLVED against it.


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