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Romero's Own 07-12-12 08:30 PM

Need some help
 
Hey all, i have recently been considering staring Fantasy. I am at the moment caught between Lizardmen and Empire. I could do with some help on choosing. Any help will help.

Archaon18 07-12-12 09:11 PM

Depends on your style of play, really. Empire can have any army you want: Be it gun line, hordes or cavalry charges. Lizardmen are arguable easier to paint and will use the least models, due to the general elitism. They rely on mixing lightning fast flanking skinks and cavalry with tar-pit, almost, Saurus.
As with anyone starting for the first time follow what you think is right for you :biggrin:

Romero's Own 07-12-12 09:20 PM

i am tempted by lizardmen. What is a tarpit. It is how you described Saurus.

son of azurman 07-12-12 09:52 PM

tarpit is when you send a unit to go into close combat and ty up its forces so that the slower guys can get there unscathed
kind of like grots or rippers

Romero's Own 07-12-12 10:15 PM

that makes sense. I also quite like chaos demons. Are they good? I know that bloodletters are quite good but i have always heard they have bad toughness.

olderplayer 07-12-12 10:18 PM

A tarpit is a unit that does not kill a lot of the opposing unit but survives a longer period of time (either because the models are cheap and thus you can lose a lot of models and still hold on or because the models are difficult to kill) and holds that unit up long enough for another unit to get into its flank or to prevent the unit from doing a lot of damage.

Lizardmen (www.lustria-online.com is an excellent Internet site dedicated to Lizardmen) are not a classic tarpit army, except for a Temple Guard unit with a Slann in the second rank or a stegadon (which is stubborn). They have good core and special infantry in saurus and Temple Guard (elite saurus warriors), respectively, and excellent cheap shooting/skirmish units with poison shooting skinks (poison autowounds on rolling a 6 to hit) and salamanders that can march and send out flame template shots. Lizardmen have one of the best, if not the best, lords in the game in the Slann with some of the best access to magic and abilities. Lizardmen also have good fighting lords/heroes in oldbloods and scar vets and a decent hero level caster in a skink priest. The key features of Lizardmen is the scaly skin armour save boost for the saurus, temple guard (elite suarus) and stegadon (monsters that can be ridden); the cold-blooded rule allowing one to roll 3 dice and throw away the least favorable one on all leadership/break tests; the availability of poison shooting units with speed and skirmish abiity; low initiative (means they hit later than opponents) for infantry. Thus, the army has answers to most other armies it may face.

Empire (warhammer-empire.com is the dedicated Internet site for the army with lots of history but kind of hit or miss currently) has classic tarpits in a large block of relatively cheap infantry that can remain steadfast, stubborn elite infantry in greatswords, stubborn elite cavalry in Reiksguard and special stubborn (war altar) or unbreakable units (steam tank and flagellents). Empire, in the new book, can be run with a heavy cavalry focus or a heavy infantry focus or a mix of the two. Core cavalry units can have the best armour save possible (1+) or great weapons with a 2+ AS and one core cav unit can be upgraded to obtain strength 4. Empire has good access to war machine shooting, with cannons and hellblaster volley guns being the best choices. Unique aspects of empire include war priests [arch lectors at the lord level] that give the unit they are in hatred (re-roll to hit on the first round of combat) and can cast cheap "blessings" on the units they are in [to get a ward save of 5+ or re-roll to wound abiilty or flaming attacks], access to good war machines and engineers; generals and bsb captains are only okay but can be heavily armoured and allow their units to roll 3 dice (throwing out worst one) to pass break tests; the detachment special rule that allows certain infantry units (parents) to pass certain abilities to their detachments and the detachments have certain countercharge and stand and shoot abilities in return when the parent unit is charged; unique chariots the provide augments to units in clsoe proximity in the war altar (hatred and war priest blessings), hurricanium (+1 to hit), and luminark (6+ ward save); and heavy plate armour on special infantry, certain characters, and cavalry units allowing for superior armour saves. Empire battle wizards have access to all the common magic lores but do not have an army book lore. The nubmer of options can be bewildering to a new player and can increase the financial commitment to building this army if you want a number of the competition options.

Financial and competitive considerations:
Lizardmen are the most competitive army in the game (top tier) on average because of the Slann, salamanders and flexibility of the army. However, you can expect a new army book within two years and that significant changes in a new book will likely result in having to buy more models and render some of you current army obsolete.

Empire have the newest army book and lots of options. Thus committing to Empire will result in being able to play the army for a number of years before worrying about significant changes in the rules requiring changing the army you have built. Empire is a competitive army with certain builds but not over-the-top or top tier like Lizardmen current are able to be constructed. Empire's large number of options and special units can mean a larger financial commitment and more assembly and painting unless you are able to identify and focus on a specific build and find it successful right away.

son of azurman 07-12-12 10:25 PM

romero what do we always do to make decisions
lol just kidding it aint the best way

olderplayer 07-12-12 10:38 PM

Chaos Daemons are still very good (above army competitively) but the 8th edition rules have altered the army quite a bit. I currently play chaos daemons. Because they are daemons they are immune to fear, terror, and panic tests and don't break from losing combat. They also get a 5+ ward save. However, when they lose combat they suffer wounds to each unit in combat based on the extent to which each unit fails the break test. Daemons have their own unit magic items and standards (icons) which are distinct to the army and not access to the common magic items in the main rule book. Also, each daemonic item is limited to specific models/units and tied generally to a chaos god. The lords, heroes, core, special, and rare unit slots each have a one dedicated model/unit for each of the four chaos gods. The primary heroes, heralds, can only join units of the same chaos god, which limits their flexibility. Thus, the heralds are typically tied to core units with the same chaos god.

The lords are all greater daemons and monsters, which means that they cannot join other units and are also very expensive. Because 8th edition allows even weak attacks to wound on a roll of a 6 and with poison and war machine shooting and magic is particularly effective, the use of greater daemons and lords is avoided in most competitive armies. The primary exceptions are Kairos when special characters are allowed and Keeper of Secrets with spirit swallower. That forces one to build the army around the heralds and to have heralds of tzeentch with master of sorcery (abilty to choose any magic lore in the rule book and know all spells) that are the primary wzards.

Bloodletters are the best core infantry and best run in a large horde formation with a herlad of khorne leading them. They survive by relying on either a ward save or getting off augment spells from wizards with access to lore of life or beasts that boost their toughness.

All four core units are playable but each has a specialized purpose/focus.
Only the fleshhounds are competitive amoung the special units.
While Bloodcrushers of khorne are viable, the best rare units are fiends of slaanesh (extremely fast moving monstrous infantry) and flamers of tzeentch (skirmishers with extremely good ability to shoot flaming shots).

A lot of units in the chaos daemons book are not optimal right now. Also, the need for flexbility means competitive builds use a mix of untis from the different chaos gods. This means most competitive army builds are constructed around a mix of core units led by heralds with flamers, fiends, and fleshhounds used for their special purposes. If special characters are allowed, then a few of the special characters (Kairos, epidemus, skulltaker, changeling, masque) are excellent and when mxied into the army can make the army top tier.

Romero's Own 07-12-12 10:49 PM

thanks for all the help guys. I have decided to settle with Lizardmen. I will try and work out some kind of list. Does anyone have any ideas on what is good and not in the Lizardmen. And i might bide my time and wait for the new armybook to arrive in a couple of years,

olderplayer 07-13-12 04:02 PM

I'd start now. You are at least a year a a half away from a new book if not two years. Also, I don't think a new book will change the core of the army. Lizardmen have been a pretty consistent army for many years. A new book is most likely to add a monstrous cav unit and repoint cost the various units and characters and adjust the rules for the Slann and the engine of the gods stegadon/skink priest model and thus alter the balance of units modestly. Kroxigors may become cheaper and more playable outside of a mixed unit with skinks. Similarly, cold one cav may become more points effective and more worth playing.

Shop around on e-bay, ask around in your area if their is a community of players, and elsewhere for someone selling their army. A lot of people start and then quit and sell at half price or less their units. You may have to perform some work to fix up used models but they are a lot cheaper.

This is sort of a shopping/wish list for fighting 2500 to 3000 point battles

Core units:
Saurus warriors (min 30 to 40; ideal 80 to 100)
Skinks with blowpipes/skirmishers (min 20, max 40)
Skinks with javelins and shields/ranked (min 24 max 60)
Kroxigors (for use with ranked skinks in a mixed unit; min 3)

Special:
Chameleon skinks (min 10; max 20)
Terradon Riders (min 0, max 4)
Temple Guard (min 20, max 46)
Stegadon (min 0, max 2 consider outfitting the ridden section for an engine of the gods/skink priest variant)
Cold one Cav (min 0, generally not played, at most 6 for a fun unit with a mounted character)

Rare
Salamanders (min 2 max/ideal 6)-one of the best units in the game right now for the points
Ancient Steg (see steg above)
Razordon hunting pack (min 0, max 3)

Characters:
1 Slann on palanquin (must have)
1 oldblood on foot (consider making flexible for great weapon and shield options)
1-2 scar vets (can use scar vets as oldbloods)
1-2 skink priests on foot

Temple Guard are overpriced by GW right now. I am an advocate of buying and converting saurus into temple guard by painting and some conversion work. Basically, figure you need at least 60 to 80 combined saurus and temple guard models at the core of the army with skink in both skirmish and ranked forms.

BTW my son (17) started with Lizardmen 4 years ago and has now mastered the army to the point where he won 2nd general at a 40+ Indy GT, 2nd general at a 60+ player Indy GT, and most recently best general at a 44 player Indy GT this year. He always plays a slightly different list. This is his most recent army list at 2500 points:
Slann Mage-Priest (1#, 365 pts)
+ Battle Standard Bearer, Plaque of Tepok, Becalming, The Focused Rumination, Lore of Life

Saurus Oldblood (1#, 242 pts)
+ Great Weapon, Armour of Destiny, Dawnstone, Venom of the Firefly Frog,

Skink Priest (1#, 90 pts)
1 Diadem of Power,
Saurus Warriors (50#, 580 pts)
Musician + Standard Bearer Saurus Champion

Temple Guard (37#, 647 pts)
Musician + Standard Bearer Revered Guardian, Ironcurse Icon, Standard of Discipline,
10 Skinks, 56 pts + Musician
10 Skinks, 50 pts
10 Skinks, 50 pts
Chameleon Skinks (5#, 60 pts)
Chameleon Skinks (5#, 60 pts)
2 Salamander Hunting Pack, 150 pts
2 Salamander Hunting Pack, 150 pts


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