Females "insulting"? - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Default Females "insulting"?

Firstly I thank you for being drawn in by my vague, and confusing thread title, now on to the actual argument.

It seems to me that regardless of the current airs of equality, and mutual respect in the west (or at least universities in north American university settings) that being feminine or female like in anyway (even if you are female) is still viewed as undesirable in the vast majority of circumstances.

Now as a student of philosophy and psychology I am well aware of some possible reasons why this bias still exists. For instance vicarious learning of how to treat violations of gender roles, and fear of social rejection. However one would think that the well educated in our society would realise that gender is more of a cosmetic label then something of importance in our highly technologically advanced world. I mean when a 5 year old can kill a trained soldier by shooting him when he isn't looking claims to masculine superiority, especially in the art of war seems to bare far less weight then they once did.

Personally I feel our current preoccupation with gender has more to do with formation of our identity then any salient reason these days, with masculinity (Or at least western idealizations of it) seen as a positive attribute that one can aspire to much in the same way as aspiring to become a good person. Hence it is more of a matter of pragmatics then anything deep.

My current preoccupation on the matter was caused when I for a laugh I contemplated what it would mean to me if I where born another ethnicity...gradually I then came to ask myself how it would have affected me to be born another gender? Oddly enough I found that for me personally I would have been impacted far worse by ethnicity then gender, and that got me think as to why gender is so central to so many peoples self image, when I for the life of me couldn't point to one distinct example of how my gender relates to who I am.

Blah, blah, blah so what are your thoughts on this topic?


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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:10 PM
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I think its funny. I was kind of thinking about something like this the other day. I had a friend who likes drinking fruity drinks, playing video games and being a little bitch.

One day, we're talking, and I say that I was drinking a wine cooler. And he says something like I'm a fag and those are for girls. And he was being serious. I'm like... I workout, I do many masculin things, and your calling me a fag... you better take one good look at yourself.

I think its interesting, that at least, males my age don't go that extra step to look like men, but instead do little things they consider make them a man. It goes back to what you said, that anything "not manly" is frowned upon in American Culture. Even for girls.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:23 PM
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It's instinctual. Males are always the dominate gender in the animal kingdom. The dominant male is the alpha male. So most men have a tendency to do "manly" things so that they appear to be the most "manly" and the alpha male. The alpha male looks after the entire group of animals and is regarded as the strongest, most powerful member of the group.

When another male wishes to challenge the alpha male for the position, they fight sometimes to to the death. The victor becomes the new leader of the pack. There must be some innate desire to become the alpha male otherwise why risk your own life just to be the alpha? That means that there is an instinctual desire in all men to become the most "manly". Because that desire exists in all of us, and its something we naturally strive for, it becomes desirable. Because it becomes desirable, it becomes a positive trait.

Men are also physically stronger than women. There's no arguing that; thus weakness is sometimes associated with womanhood.

So why is calling a man a female an insult? Because you are calling him weaker than a man. And you are telling him that he can never be the alpha male.

This may not bother all men, because certainly there are many out there who have chosen to ignore their instinctual desires. I'm also not saying being a female is an insult in and of itself. However a man who does womanly things violates many instinctual behaviors. Because of these violations, many look at these men disdainfully and as less than a man. That is where the insult originates. It's an insult to the instinctive nature of man to be the most manly he can be, to be the alpha male.

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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:35 PM
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A big portion of women now a day, don't really care about that trait. I mean take a look the male selection of these women. geeeeez. They might as well be lesbians in my opinion. But whatever.

I'm so confused with the males of America (generally speaking). Its like as you said Iron_Freak220, they admire that alpha male trait, but its fucking redicolous what they do to feel like they have that trait. They could be the biggest bitches in the world, and then they could pretend like they are a mans man by asserting themselves for something redicolous. I'm not against people sticking up for themselves, but then they say stupid shit with people they ought not to do it.

I think that in someways its being adopted by the women. Not physically mind you, but the way women behave, is a lot more masculine. Especially around the midwest.
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:41 PM
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And this is why(except for some things that are just completely socially unacceptable) I treat men and women the same. I agree, gender really is just a change in the body. Everything else is just society "shaping" us to fit certain roles. Personally I hate the role a man is "shaped" into in the American society, and do everything I can to break it(within the limits of my own personality and moral code).

@Iron
I can see what you're saying as well, it is embedded into us. I just wonder(not contradicting you), whether that really is an instinct or whether it is "programmed" in us. Though there are some matriarchal species out there, they are few and I do understand what you're saying.

@crawford
Haha, America... I love the country, hate almost all of the people. Especially other guys... Most of them I become friends with for a short time, and then they start pulling all the "alpha male" crap on me and I start hating them. I guess that's the main reason most of my friends are girls.



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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
A big portion of women now a day, don't really care about that trait. I mean take a look the male selection of these women. geeeeez. They might as well be lesbians in my opinion. But whatever.

I'm so confused with the males of America (generally speaking). Its like as you said Iron_Freak220, they admire that alpha male trait, but its fucking redicolous what they do to feel like they have that trait. They could be the biggest bitches in the world, and then they could pretend like they are a mans man by asserting themselves for something redicolous. I'm not against people sticking up for themselves, but then they say stupid shit with people they ought not to do it.

I think that in someways its being adopted by the women. Not physically mind you, but the way women behave, is a lot more masculine. Especially around the midwest.
Yeah definitely. A lot of people out there either don't have those instinctual feelings anymore (unlikely) or just ignore them. And there are a lot of guys out there who don't know what it means to be a "man." They think if they just start fights with everybody they are men.

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragearen View Post
And this is why(except for some things that are just completely socially unacceptable) I treat men and women the same. I agree, gender really is just a change in the body. Everything else is just society "shaping" us to fit certain roles. Personally I hate the role a man is "shaped" into in the American society, and do everything I can to break it(within the limits of my own personality and moral code).

@Iron
I can see what you're saying as well, it is embedded into us. I just wonder(not contradicting you), whether that really is an instinct or whether it is "programmed" in us. Though there are some matriarchal species out there, they are few and I do understand what you're saying.

It's probably some of both. I definitely believe there are instinctual reasons for the way we act, but gender roles have been evolving and changing since the beginning of man.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 09:58 PM
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something i run into constantly is when i drink a mojito.

people(friends) ofter give me funny looks or make a comment on my masculinity until i state bond ordered one in tomorow never dies. then it oddly becomes completely acceptable. almost like james bond is the bar by which all males grade themselves or eachother.

i find it strange that a ficional character's masculinity/feminimity will alomst never be in question unless it has been pulled into the focus of the reader/viewer byt the author/director/etc
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by the-ad-man View Post
something i run into constantly is when i drink a mojito.

people(friends) ofter give me funny looks or make a comment on my masculinity until i state bond ordered one in tomorow never dies. then it oddly becomes completely acceptable. almost like james bond is the bar by which all males grade themselves or eachother.

i find it strange that a ficional character's masculinity/feminimity will alomst never be in question unless it has been pulled into the focus of the reader/viewer byt the author/director/etc
Brian agrees with you


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Last edited by Iron_Freak220; 03-11-11 at 10:07 PM.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-11-11, 10:12 PM
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Brian agrees with you

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