Should we punish the last crime on earth ? - Page 4 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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View Poll Results: Should we punish the last crime on earth? Read the first post.
Yes, we punish 82 84.54%
No, we do nothing about it 11 11.34%
I don't know 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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post #31 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jack Jack View Post
Making a person realise the harn he had done is the ideal thing to do with someone who does somehing wrong.
You, and others, seem to assume that all criminals are remorseless. I would suggest that in the majority of cases, this is untrue.

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post #32 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ChaosRedCorsairLord View Post
I'm trying to be polite but this statement is disgusting.
While I'm not sure about the coward thing, I think it's true. Inevitable but true.

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post #33 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 12:44 PM
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And yes, if a person gets its child murdered, then that person would be less human for seeking vengeance. And a coward on top of it to have it delivered by someone else.
I said retribution, not vengeance. Also how is that person supposed to 'deliver' this themselves? do they need to be the prosecution lawyer or the judge who passes sentance themselves to not be a coward?

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Forgiving is the most difficult by a long shot. Takes the most courage.
Avenging can only ever become the supperior option if one accept vengeance on itself afterward.
Forgiveness is based entirely on circumstance and is not the antithesis of retribution. Under the right circumstances it would be possible for someone to forgive someone for killing their child, but for outright murder? Do you really belkieve this staement is true in all cases, or is there a scenarion in your head which is you base your decision upon?

If someone became angry at a child and struck them hard enough to kill them, i find it troubling that anyone, let alone their parent would want to instantly forgive them.


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post #34 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Varakir View Post
If someone became angry at a child and struck them hard enough to kill them, i find it troubling that anyone, let alone their parent would want to instantly forgive them.
'want' being the operative word.

In theory, in a perfect world, they should forgive instantly. Grief doesn't require blame.

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post #35 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by torealis View Post
'want' being the operative word.

In theory, in a perfect world, they should forgive instantly. Grief doesn't require blame.
I'm still having trouble following.

In a perfect world, people can murder children and will be forgiven for their actions?


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post #36 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 01:32 PM
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I thought the implication was that it was accidental.

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post #37 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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By avenging yourself, I mean going out after the culprit and do to him whatever you want. Illegally of course. I tought it was clear. I'll also add it as to be in cold blood. And then you should be ready for others to avenge on you.

Retribution is basically the same thing as above, except that you are a coward for not going after the culprit yourself, not fleeing from your own bloodlust and being afraid that others will want to avenge on you.

Forgiveness means you are stronger than your anger
Veangence means you are as strong
Retribution means you are weaker.
Forgetting means your anger is too weak, and you are weaker.

Edit : I believe this to be true in most cases.

Oh and I do believe most criminals have remorse and are still human beings by the way, read my thread "On punishment" if you are not convinced.

Last edited by Jack Jack; 01-07-10 at 01:48 PM.
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post #38 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jack View Post
About the quote above,

I will clarify something :

Hypothesis 1: We put people in jail for detterence.
True, but not the only thing. Retribution is another key factor as explained earlier
Hypothesis 2: When the last crime is comitted, we don't punish it.

Conclusion : Everyone put in jail is innocent.

Though I agree to your first hypothesis, your demonstration is missing a key factor; punishment is a detterent for the offender too, more so as it directly applies to him/her. It is this factor throws the rest of it off course.

Demonstration :

People are put in jail to promote a certain behavior in others though more so to the offender =» true by Hypothesis 1
People are in jail because of the future actions of others though more so the actions of the offender =» True by above but not Hypothesis 2 as there's more to punishment than detterence (i.e. retribution/revenge). All factors must be considered before deciding wheather hypothesis 2 is necessary.
People put in jail are not in jail because of there own actions =» Not true by above as the consequences are put in place as a direct result of the actions of the offender. It is that which makes the penalty apply, not the inaction of others.
People put in jail are innocent =» Not true by above as it is their actions which demand the need for a detterent. No criminal activity = nothing to detter
CQFD.

If you agree to second line of the quote, then you must agree to each of the following lest you'd contradict yourself.
Not quite, all factors must be considered before reaching that conclusion.
To say there is no reason for a detterent after such a crime is fine, I've already said that myself. To say that by agreeing to this and wanting punishment is a contradiction is only so if they were the only factors, which is not the case.

You have said that retribution isn't a valuable reaction. I disagree as, though it may be sick, it can alieve suffering felt by the victims of the offense. Also, weaker reactions aren't necessarily less valuable.

I strongly disagree that it is cowerdice to let the others (in this case the government) handle punishment; if everyone thought that way we'd take the law into our own hands, adding our bias to the punishments (fuelled by anger and vengence felt by being victimised) thus making everything harsher; something that, judging by your previous posts, you don't want. That's a contradiction.

As I've said before, suffering is a given, we just choose to put it on the guilty or the innocent.

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post #39 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torealis View Post
I thought the implication was that it was accidental.
I did say in my post that i could understand forgiveness for accidental killing.

Jackjack i think i'm starting to understand what you are saying, but your statements are very blanketing. I think the persons reasons,circumstances & remorse all have to be taken into account to be forgiven, you can't set a general rule for this.

I would want to know & consider the same things before i ultimately answered the topic question.


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post #40 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Varakir View Post
you can't set a general rule for this..
I think you can, morally speaking. Surely, the fewest people that suffer = best? Therefore, no punishment?

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