Should we punish the last crime on earth ? - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Off Topic Totally off-topic chat in here.

View Poll Results: Should we punish the last crime on earth? Read the first post.
Yes, we punish 82 84.54%
No, we do nothing about it 11 11.34%
I don't know 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-05-10, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Jack Jack's Avatar
Jack Jack's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,147
Reputation: 2
Default

In fact, I believe both options are morally wrong.

To me the fact that there will or will not be other crimes after is of little importance, but it does enlightens on why do we punish when we don't know.

If you chose yes; then you are punishing for no "greater purpose". It's only a matter of retribution.

Some say that it's only fair because others have been punished before.
I find it realy immature to feel bad toward others because said others don't have it as bad as you. Even when injustice does exist, those who take advantage of it are not necessarily to blame.
Moreover, John Rawls had made a brilliant demonstration on how can inequalities still be just/fair (I know he was talking about distribution of wealth but still).

So the fact that others who had been punished will feel bad is not a reason to put the last offender in jail because it would serve no purpose.

Then, there is the idea of jails having a purpose. If we don't send him to jail, it means that everyone who did get sent to jail ultimately get sent to jail because HE would commit a crime.

A guy commits murder. He gets in as a form of detterence. He is not in jail because he commited murder, he is in jail because others will, so that they will not. He is in jail, not for his own crimes, but for the non-crimes of others. So he is technically innocent. Which means we should have no trouble jailing random parserby if it would be detterent in some way.

So I'm stuck finding that both options are wrong : you should'nt punish him and if you don't then you should'nt have punished anyone else in the first place.
Jack Jack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-05-10, 06:17 PM
Senior Member
ChaosRedCorsairLord's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,007
Reputation: 17
Default

What's wrong with retribution? The murderer gets what he deserved. Our ancestors had it right, an eye for an eye.

When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball...
ChaosRedCorsairLord is offline  
post #23 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-05-10, 06:43 PM
Senior Member
 
Catpain Rich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,244
Reputation: 1
Default

I see no problems with treating everyone equally. He should be punished, whether or not any other crimes happen afterwards.

Don't give me rep, just poke My Bum ... and then give me rep.
Catpain Rich is offline  
post #24 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-05-10, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Jack Jack's Avatar
Jack Jack's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,147
Reputation: 2
Default

I can't see how someone who get over petty anger and bloodlust NOT think retribution is wrong. Retribution does no good whatsoever. It only does bad. It does bad on allegedly bad people. Maybe it relieves somehow, but if you are relieved by bad purposely inflicted onto other, then your value as a human being is lessened. Moreover, a good joke will probably prove more effective. And if you are not relieved by a good joke, then what you need is getting treated for depression.

As for equality, equality is overrated. Equality is simply a tool for promoting justice. When justice is better served without equality, then we should do without it.
The problem I see with treating everyone equally a priori is that it simplifies calculations with could lead to far better solutions if done rigorously.
Jack Jack is offline  
post #25 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 07:31 AM
description whore
 
deathbringer's Avatar
deathbringer's Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Manchester uni
Posts: 2,864
Reputation: 2
Default

Ok taking from a legal stand point the whole point of the "law" is to enforce justice. Now in the UK at least judges are forced to confer with others decisions and thus a case with similar facts must be punished equally.

The law relies upon equality as no man is above the law and all are equal in its eyes. Technically if your not punishing it that there is no law and hence if there is no law their can be no crime so people could steal cheat and murder freely as if you didnt punish it the law would be irrelevant and hence their would no longer be crimes.

I would rather punish it and have no more cheating mugging and stuff
Then not punish it have absolutely no laws of relevance at all and consequentially have no crimes

Probably gibberish but made sense in my head

As for equality over rated in terms of justice thats rubbish.. the law is meant to be the one place where you can expect fairness reguardless of colour creed or code. I dont want to live in a world where a short man can win a case simply because he is short etc

kudos to lillian thorne for the awesome sig
deathbringer is offline  
post #26 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 09:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Ryuzaki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 206
Reputation: 1
Default

First off, I'd like to clear up something Jack Jack has said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jack View Post
A guy commits murder.
ok.
He gets in as a form of detterence
Agreed.
He is not in jail because he commited murder, he is in jail because others will, so that they will not.
Half truth: Though he is in jail so that others won't, he is still imprisoned for his crime (murder)
He is in jail, not for his own crimes, but for the non-crimes of others.
He is in jail for his own crimes, though yes the purpose is future crime deterrence
So he is technically innocent.
No, he is guilty of murder.
Which means we should have no trouble jailing random parserby if it would be detterent in some way.
That would be the only positive aspect of it were it true. Aside from that, the government would be put in a horrible light, people would live in fear, etc...

Punishment is a crime deterrent, but that's not the only effects.
In my opinion, the guy (assuming it's a guy) should be punished. The act of punishment obviously wouldn't be as a detterent but, as said before, retribution. I agree that retribution is wrong, it's a horrible thing, but that doesn't stop me, or anyone else, from wanting it. It's a sick method of relief, but the one people preffer when applicable. It's the same reason why if you're punched in the face, your first thought is to punch back, regardless as to whether it's 'right' and 'just'. It may be argued that this reaction is a survival instinct, but that doesn't account for the anger you feel after the impact, the anger that drives you to punch him back.

Imagine if you arrive home one evening and find the person you love most dead in the kitchen, blood everywhere, obviously a murder. Though you won't necessarily go out and kill the one who did it, you'd want them to be punished, regardless of how it happened. Even if you find out it was an accident, does that really make it ok? Of course not! You'd still want that person to suffer for it! You see that when hear those stories of a family's 'persuit of justice'. Do you really think they're doing it as a 'deterrent for others' as much as it is a retribution?

Retribution is one of the most effective ways to heal the scars of the victims of such a crime. By fighting back against the perpertrator, we feel better, plain and simple. By not 'fighting back' and punishing such a person, we're maximising the hurt suffered by the victims of his offense, the victims who've done nothing wrong.

When a crime is committed, someone always pays. We just choose the guilty or the innocent.

That's my bloodstained 2 cents.

I can read your mind. Right now you think I'm lying.

games from August 2009 - now
w/d/l
21/4/6

Check out my black legion W.I.P

GENERATION 7: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
Ryuzaki is offline  
post #27 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Jack Jack's Avatar
Jack Jack's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,147
Reputation: 2
Default

About the quote above,

I will clarify something :

Hypothesis 1: We put people in jail for detterence.
Hypothesis 2: When the last crime is comitted, we don't punish it.

Conclusion : Everyone put in jail is innocent.

Demonstration :

People are put in jail to promote a certain behavior in others =» true by Hypothesis 1
People are in jail because of the future actions of others =»True by above and Hypothesis 2
People put in jail are not in jail because of there own actions =» True by above
People put in jail are innocent =» True by above
CQFD.

If you agree to second line of the quote, then you must agree to each of the following lest you'd contradict yourself.


About Law vs Justice.

The whole point of the law is not to promote justice. Law only promotes itself. Law promotes order.

Men are not equal. If the laws were to be just, they should try to balance this inequalities. If the laws were to promote justice, they would have to acknowledge the inequalities between men to the advantage of those who are more fragile.

Suppose the law says littering in a specific place is illegal and fined 400$ for anybody who litter. Is that an equal treatment ? Yes. Is that a fair treatment ? No. Why? because not everybody has the same revenue. I'm paid 13$ an hour, for me, this fine would mean 31 hours of work. My friend is paid 8$ an hour, to pay the same fine, he'd have to work 50 hours. My other friend makes 25 $ an hour, he would have to work 16 hours to pay for the fine. Suppose the penalty for littering was community service instead. Would that be acceptable that for the same offence, I be fined for 31 hours, while my chums are fined 50 and 16 hours respectively for no other reason than our respective salaries?

Equality is not justice.

Of course you could say that according to the law, the fact that the crime is last is of no importance.
You could also say that not enforcing the law makes it less of a crime to start with.
Very true.

But that's not interesting.

Last edited by Jack Jack; 01-07-10 at 10:20 AM.
Jack Jack is offline  
post #28 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 10:37 AM
Senior Member
 
Varakir's Avatar
Varakir's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somerset, UK
Posts: 4,634
Reputation: 42
Default

Quote:
I can't see how someone who get over petty anger and bloodlust NOT think retribution is wrong. Retribution does no good whatsoever. It only does bad. It does bad on allegedly bad people. Maybe it relieves somehow, but if you are relieved by bad purposely inflicted onto other, then your value as a human being is lessened. Moreover, a good joke will probably prove more effective. And if you are not relieved by a good joke, then what you need is getting treated for depression.
I admit that i struggle to see how you can think like this, i find it difficult to get my head around.

You're saying if for example someone's child is murdered, that person is less human for wanting retribution? I'd question the humanity of anyone who could let such a thing happen to their family unpunished.

I have no desire to kill anyone for any crime, or to see them physically hurt, but i do believe in retribution. I even think it's healthy for the murderer as well. If they walk free then they can surround themselves with distraction and bury away what they have done, in prison they will wake up with a constant reminder and a chance to truely focus on what they did and why.

For me a punishment isn't about hurting the person who's done wrong, it's making them understand that they have hurt someone and realising the consequences of their actions.


My Salamander Logs & Army Showcase:
The Ashbringers 3rd co. ::: Into the fires of Battle:::Army Showcase


Currently Painting:

Landraider Redeemer
Varakir is offline  
post #29 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Jack Jack's Avatar
Jack Jack's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 1,147
Reputation: 2
Default

Making a person realise the harn he had done is the ideal thing to do with someone who does somehing wrong.

I don't call that retribution, which I, because of my lack of knowledge in the english language, believe is synonymous to legal vengeance.

And yes, if a person gets its child murdered, then that person would be less human for seeking vengeance. And a coward on top of it to have it delivered by someone else.

Most valuable reaction » least valuable reaction
Forgiving » Avenging » Retributing » Forgetting.
The more you go to the left, the more it is demanding.

Forgiving is the most difficult by a long shot. Takes the most courage.
Avenging can only ever become the supperior option if one accept vengeance on itself afterward.
Jack Jack is offline  
post #30 of 426 (permalink) Old 01-07-10, 12:01 PM
Senior Member
ChaosRedCorsairLord's Flag is: Australia
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,007
Reputation: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Jack View Post
And yes, if a person gets its child murdered, then that person would be less human for seeking vengeance. And a coward on top of it to have it delivered by someone else.
I'm trying to be polite but this statement is disgusting.

When I was a young boy, I dreamed of being a baseball...
ChaosRedCorsairLord is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > HO Off Topic > Off Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome