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post #1 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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My life lacks the thrills of an average 18 year old. I spend my time either playing 40k, or arguing about religion. For the past 6 months, I have been on Facebook polls, discussing religion. I have a simple question for any christian on this forum. I have never gotten a "real" answer from anyone. Just simply beating around the bush, and trying to avoid a real answer. I have posted this on facebook polls also, waiting for a reply.


God knows everything, past, present, future. Your god created everyone/everything. Why does your god expect people to follow him & accept him, even though he made that person, to do those exact things? It seems like a little girl in a play house. She has her "friends", and controls what they do. She knows what they are going to do. Her dolls aren't going to make a decision out of left field, and throw her off guard. Your god created everyone, knowing their decision to whether or not, they will accept him. So what is the point of all of these trials, to test your faith, since it is already set in stone, what you will believe? It seems like quite a waste of energy, by god, to try and make people accept him. Like I said, he knows what everyone is going to do. So, it seems like god is simply creating people, purely to throw them in hell. Once again, he knows everyone decisions. So he knows, when he created you, whether or not, you will accept him. You cannot deny this. If you do, then you are claiming that your god is not all knowing. This seems like quite a evil god, that creates problems for everyone/everything, on purpose. Also, god created Satan, why? Yes, he was Lucifer, then Satan. But god knew that he would turn to be Satan & evil. In turn, god knowingly created the root of all evil? Well, god is really the root of all evil...How can anyone worship a "god" that has these attributes, and does the things he does? This simply does not make sense to me.

No matter which way you look at this, the christian god seems to be quite a bad person/divine being. I don't see how someone could accept this being as their "master".
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post #2 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 04:31 PM
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your question is an interesting one, and one i would like to address but cannot personally do so right now (as i'm at work). so instead i would like to offer you some advice.

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For the past 6 months, I have been on Facebook polls, discussing religion.
in all honesty, internet forums are not the best place to 'discuss' anything. let alone theology. the supposed anonimity of the internet and ease with which anyone can imput attracts comments that are not condusive to discussion. so if you really want to know i would advise that you buy/borrow some books on theology, read them and then go and talk to Christian leaders who you trust are genuinely representative of Christians in general and genuinely interested in discussing their veiws. there are no quick answers, so don't expect to find them on the internet.

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I have a simple question for any christian on this forum. I have never gotten a "real" answer from anyone. Just simply beating around the bush, and trying to avoid a real answer.
a word of caution, just because you personally label the question as simple, doesn't actually make it so. the question you are asking doesn't have a single catagorical answer and it is one that Christians have found differing answers for throughout history. that people have tried to answer your question at all suggests that they have genuinely looked for the an answer, not that they have an answer that they don't want to give away.

(have you even read the Wikipedia page on the subject of Predestination? i wouldn't recomend Wiki as a good academic resource, but it is a reasonable starting place for investigation and that article may answer some of your questions.)

(also, i would advise that you do some more research into the concept of Satan in Judaism and Christianity. the description of Satan that you have given, whislt common amongst Christans and non-Christians has little to to with the Bible and it almost entirely lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost.)

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post #3 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 04:34 PM
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you are completly right and why would you belief in
him you dont even know he exists it is not as if anyone
has seen him exept mad man and sect leaders(jesus)
rep+ for the good point


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post #4 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 04:36 PM
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sorry it looks like i can't give any rep points on this part of the forum


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post #5 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by admiraldick View Post
your question is an interesting one, and one i would like to address but cannot personally do so right now (as i'm at work). so instead i would like to offer you some advice.



in all honesty, internet forums are not the best place to 'discuss' anything. let alone theology. the supposed anonimity of the internet and ease with which anyone can imput attracts comments that are not condusive to discussion. so if you really want to know i would advise that you buy/borrow some books on theology, read them and then go and talk to Christian leaders who you trust are genuinely representative of Christians in general and genuinely interested in discussing their veiws. there are no quick answers, so don't expect to find them on the internet.


Oh, I completely agree. Im just saying, that I have asked these questions for "average" christians, and they never answer the question, with a reasonable answer. They usually answer with "It's Gods will..." or they will try to use bible versus to prove the questions wrong, though it makes not sense.


a word of caution, just because you personally label the question as simple, doesn't actually make it so. the question you are asking doesn't have a single catagorical answer and it is one that Christians have found differing answers for throughout history. that people have tried to answer your question at all suggests that they have genuinely looked for the an answer, not that they have an answer that they don't want to give away.

The answers I get, can be easily put in the area of "simple". I cannot emphasize enough, on the lack on intelligence I have found on those discussion areas. No, im not trying to insult religious people, but the religious people that actually did try and discuss, were extremely uneducated.

Why should there be more than one answer, within a religions population. This just shows how the religion is purely from man. If anything is the word of god, from a perfect being, it shouldn't be able to be misinterpreted. A perfect being wouldn't make this mistake. But I man does.





(also, i would advise that you do some more research into the concept of Satan in Judaism and Christianity. the description of Satan that you have given, whislt common amongst Christans and non-Christians has little to to with the Bible and it almost entirely lifted from Milton's Paradise Lost.)

What description have I given to Satan? Than he turned to evil? Or that he is two "separate" beings, with two separate names? I use those names are reference to when Satan was gods right hand man (Lucifer) and Satan as when shit went down. I know Lucifer has nothing to do with any readings in the bible. I know it isn't exactly correct, but it is what I use personally, when explaining things. I should have not used it in the first place, to reduce confusion.
......................
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post #6 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 05:14 PM
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It seems like we get these kinds of threads pretty regularly. I think religion needs to be a banned topic, personally, because nobody on either side of the argument can change the others' mind on anything. They'll all just argue over it, convinced they are right and they can make the other see their error, when in all reality, it doesn't matter. Atheists, Christians, whatever, you're all just beating your heads against the wall.

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post #7 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Iron Angel View Post
It seems like we get these kinds of threads pretty regularly. I think religion needs to be a banned topic, personally, because nobody on either side of the argument can change the others' mind on anything. They'll all just argue over it, convinced they are right and they can make the other see their error, when in all reality, it doesn't matter. Atheists, Christians, whatever, you're all just beating your heads against the wall.
I agree.

We're not gonna get anywhere with this thread, we never do with these sort of threads. No matter what anyone says, you're mind isn't going to change.

Anyways, if you read the Bible, God gave living things free will. They are no longer under his control. He may be able to tell what happens, but that is not up to him. Your actions shape your future, not God. God created, God oversees, God does not have total control. He may be able to make things happen, extraordinary things, maybe even take some control if he wants, but full control would defy free will.

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post #8 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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.

Anyways, if you read the Bible, God gave living things free will. They are no longer under his control. He may be able to tell what happens, but that is not up to him. Your actions shape your future, not God. God created, God oversees, God does not have total control. He may be able to make things happen, extraordinary things, maybe even take some control if he wants, but full control would defy free will.
But then how can god be all knowing? An all knowing god, and free will, contradict each other. If god knows all, past present & future, then he knows everyones decisions.
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post #9 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 06:33 PM
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But then how can god be all knowing? An all knowing god, and free will, contradict each other. If god knows all, past present & future, then he knows everyones decisions.
Just because God knows something is going to happen, doesn't mean he made it happen. Take 'psychics' for example. Just because they know something is going to happen doesn't mean they made it happen. Maybe that's a bad example but it's all I can think of.

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post #10 of 123 (permalink) Old 11-19-09, 07:46 PM
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Now I know what you’re thinking; “Oh crap, Rev’s on the warpath again!” But, I haven’t played devil’s advocate in a while. Plus it might help people understand I’m not 100% evil. There’s a difference between all evil and mostly evil. ;)

And FYI, coming into a thread and asking that it be closed because you personally feel that no good can come from them is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy. Either you can constructively contribute to the betterment of the discussions, or you can simply stay out of them. Or in my case, you can politely withdraw when people think you’re getting uppity. Besides, it’s not always about changing someone’s mind, but gaining new information.
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My life lacks the thrills of an average 18 year old. I spend my time either playing 40k, or arguing about religion. For the past 6 months, I have been on Facebook polls, discussing religion. I have a simple question for any christian on this forum. I have never gotten a "real" answer from anyone. Just simply beating around the bush, and trying to avoid a real answer. I have posted this on facebook polls also, waiting for a reply.
I don’t have enough experience to comment on Facebook, but… I don’t think you’ll find much in the way of intelligent discussion. After all, look at how you’re posing the question: polls? In any event, I’ll respond with some philosophical responses I’ve received from individuals who I fell put some thought into it. I’ll break it down bit by bit…
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God knows everything, past, present, future.
Depends on what idea you’re working from. Some believe that he is all knowing, while others believe he is omnipresent, existing in all times simultaneously. He may not know what you will do, but he may know what you’ve already done. The usual explanation is that he knows all possible outcomes.
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Your god created everyone/everything.
That would be more or less accurate.
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Originally Posted by Pukka View Post
Why does your god expect people to follow him & accept him, even though he made that person, to do those exact things?
Who says he expects you to follow him? And did he create you to serve a particular purpose? Now this is something I haven’t received a straight answer on either, but there does seem to be some disconnect between the concepts of intentional design and free will. I would suggest you get someone to clarify their position on it before hand. Because if he did design us to essentially serve his will, he clearly made a miscalculation with the addition of free will.
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It seems like a little girl in a play house. She has her "friends", and controls what they do. She knows what they are going to do. Her dolls aren't going to make a decision out of left field, and throw her off guard.
Having seen children play with dolls, I’m not sure they know what their toys will be doing more than 3 seconds ahead of time, if that.
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Your god created everyone, knowing their decision to whether or not, they will accept him.
Taking certain definitions and explanations into consideration, this is a possible perspective that needs a better explanation than I have received. You could create a movie parallel, where even Directors know the outcome of the movie but still enjoy watching it.
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So what is the point of all of these trials, to test your faith, since it is already set in stone, what you will believe?
One interesting philosophy I encountered was whether or not you can accept the part that’s been predestined for you. The challenge comes from your ability to understand the part, accept that it has been provided to you and your ability to fulfill it. Say for example a Christian Woman was informed later in life that she would mother the reincarnation of the devil. Knowing this, would she accept her fate and carry out the will of god or would she attempt to alter her destiny trying to serve him the way in which she interprets.

Another philosophy is illustrated by the TV Show Cheaters. Sure the women know their men are scum, perhaps they just want confirmation. Although sure, a woman who intentionally sets up her man in a position he wouldn’t normally want to be in is setting herself up for disappointment.
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It seems like quite a waste of energy, by god, to try and make people accept him.
What energy is he really putting into it? “Worship me or burn.” The fire pit could have already been built, it’s not that hard to push someone in for being a douche bag. Besides, people do this all the time in other aspects of life, is it a waste of energy for anyone to try and make others accept them?
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Like I said, he knows what everyone is going to do.
Again, depends entirely on what philosophy you’re using.
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So, it seems like god is simply creating people, purely to throw them in hell.
What about the people that don’t go there?
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Once again, he knows everyone decisions.
Who knows?
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So he knows, when he created you, whether or not, you will accept him. You cannot deny this. If you do, then you are claiming that your god is not all knowing.
Even if that was true, it still doesn’t make him evil. Evil is purely subjective.
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This seems like quite a evil god, that creates problems for everyone/everything, on purpose.
There’s the old saying how can good exist without evil? Perhaps it’s to demonstrate a balance of the world or alternative and individual perspectives. I don’t consider certain things evil while others do. A mud slide killing a thousand people isn’t evil.
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Also, god created Satan, why? Yes, he was Lucifer, then Satan. But god knew that he would turn to be Satan & evil. In turn, god knowingly created the root of all evil? Well, god is really the root of all evil...
I’m glad admiraldick already addressed this. There is a huge misconception that Satan and Lucifer are the same guy. Without getting into assorted details, I’ll just leave it at that.
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How can anyone worship a "god" that has these attributes, and does the things he does? This simply does not make sense to me.
People worship Shiva, whose sole purpose is the destruction of reality as we know it. People also worship money, which enables us to pretty much do whatever we want. People worship a lot of things, I chalk it up to whatever they feel good about and works for them for the time being. Of course, there is the concept of fear and attempting to insure you don’t piss off a creature that can obliterate you with a thought. Maybe it’s not worship, maybe it’s insure you keep the bear fed and that you don’t poke it with a stick.
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No matter which way you look at this, the christian god seems to be quite a bad person/divine being. I don't see how someone could accept this being as their "master".
Depends on your interpretation of bad, where it lies on your moral meter. And some people can look at it a certain way that says gods a stand up kind of guy. Besides, a master is nothing more than an entity that exerts control over a willing subservient. I’m sure you may have thought that you parents or guardians may have been real bad people at one point, but all in all you have to give them props for the efforts they put into you.

I’d like to think of it as a parent relationship. My mother did create me, and does want the best for me and desires I return my affections freely to her. While she and I might never see eye to eye on certain things, and while there were times I may have kicked and screamed at the very notions of her authority, I respect what she did for me. And while she may have not created a hell for me to live in should I disobey her and choose my own path, it would certainly be one with a little less familiarity and motherly love. Now wouldn’t it be grand if you could simply boil down the entirety of Christian faith to this idea? I think a lot less people would be so adverse to it. But I guess that’s the difference between having an idea and having faith. (Oh snap, Dogma reference!)

Pondering...
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