Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury
As for the employment issues, yeah, they want to know that I'm not going to poison everyone in the restaurant, that's what references are for.
And criminals certainly don't know anyone willing to lie on a job reference. And what if you haven't got an employment history or references?
And that doesn't do anything about the need to keep track of people's taxes. Identification makes it harder to cheat on taxes or get out of paying child support, etc. Sure, that's not exactly something to win over an individual, but it's important.
I shouldn't have to prove that I am allowed to work in the country of my birth.
Why not? I can go over there, accents notwithstanding, and claim to be a native and get all flustered when someone has the temerity to make me prove that I'm eligible to work in 'the country of my birth'. Why should an employer take your word over mine? You may have been born there, but John Shopkeep has no way of knowing that without, say, some form of identification.
Sure, you're an island so you don't have the same illigal immigration problems we've got here, but trust me as an American, I'm *glad* I have to show a card that says I'm a citizen before getting a job because that means the illegal who just hopped the border has to do the same, and can't. (Yes, I'm aware that people do still hire illegals, but they have to do so knowingly, or be duped by phony credentials, either way someone has to break the law and can be punished when it comes out)
Opening a bank account, yeah of course I need to be able to prove who I am.
The thing is there is no real need for another form of required ID in this country.
How many forms of ID are there already in play? If they already exist, why is this so upsetting?
If you've already got one form of ID in the country, why does it matter? What do you use now to prove your identity to open an account? Plus there's no reason these IDs can't be combined.
Here you can get either a State ID, *or* a Driver's License. They look the same though obviously the id says 'Identification Card' and the driver's license says 'Driver's License' (and the ID has an extra bit saying it's not a driver's license, just in case), and except for the issue of whether or not you're permitted to drive with one, function the same way. If I take the driver's test and pass my driver's license has the exact same information, even the same ID number as my old state ID, it's just got the driving endorsement tacked on.
Hell, we've even got a new 'Enhanced ID' that works like a passport for going to Canada (and maybe Mexico, not sure). If your driver's license is an Enhanced ID you can use it as a driving permit, an ID and a limited passport all in one.
If you've already got driver's licenses and age verification cards, then naturlaly they'd just be folded into the national ID system. Your driver's license would function as an ID card and age verification card. If you don't drive, your ID can double as an age verification card.
We have age verification cards for anyone who doesn't look 21 so they can buy drinks and smokes, I'm 31, why the fuck would I need to prove I am old enough to buy some beers?
Depends on how old you look and whether or not the barkeep knows you. It's the same thing as the 'why should I have tp prove I'm a citizen' question...people aren't psychic, and would be foolish to take your word for it, knowing that criminals (and kids trying to get wasted) are known to lie about such things.
If you look young for your age, why should I as a business that is subject to heavy fines and loss of operating license, take a chance with my livelihood by selling to someone who, for all I know, could be a minor or even a government sting?
Maybe drinking age enforcement is more lax in the UK, but here it;s serious business.
I sell beer and smokes for a living. I don't even own the shop, ut if I sell to a minor I personally am subject to a $500 fine (on top of getting immediately terminated by the company), the shop itself is subject to a larger fine, and after three such infractions, loses its license to sell alcohol and tobacco, which makes up the vast majority of our income.
Unless you look like my granddad, I'm not risking my money, my job, and the livelihoods of the people I work with because you don't feel you should have to prove your age. I don't feel I should have to sell to someone who doesn't prove their age...and since I'm the one with the beer, I win
You already have ID cards in the States, have they done any of the things that are being used as an excuse for us to have them? Have they cut fraud, identity theft, terrorism?
That's a loaded question, mate. In large part because we've had IDs for ages, well before fraud, identity theft and terrorism were major concerns.
Has the advent of the police department and legal system done anything to reduce crime? Obviously there's still criminals, so they must do jack all. May as well can the whole criminal justice system and save the taxpayers some money.
It only takes an ounce of common sense to realize that it's a lot harder to claim to be someone else when you have to produce valid documentation to back your point than it would be in a place where they had nothing but your word to go by.
Is it impossible to trick the system? No, of course not. Just like it's not impossible to get a handgun in England if you're so inclined...but it's a lot *harder* to get one than it would be in a place where you can nip down to the corner shop and pick one up. I'm all for making it harder for criminals to be criminals.
Proving who I am is no one's business until I do something wrong.
That's just flat wrong.
As you've already admitted above, there's plenty of reasons why people would legitimately need to establish your identity.
Hell, just using your bloody credit card makes it the business of anyone you buy from to prove who you are, because for all they know you're a pickpocket who just stole the mastercard of one Norm T Unsavory. Then not only are they doing you a disservice by potentially allowing a thief to use your money for their own, they're also running the risk of losing that money *and* the merchendise if it is proven that the card is stolen.
I get upset when a merchant doesn't want to see my ID after taking my credit card
Talk about reducing fraud, there's some right there. It's not impossible to use my card if you steal it, but you've got to go out of your way and/or hope that the business you're patronizing isn't paying attention.
If the police want to check my identity, they ask me, I tell them and they check it out.
And in the meantime, they'll detain you until such time as they have established your identity. Wouldn't you rather just show a piece if plastic and be on your merry way?
They can even check my finger prints and DNA, I have been arrested on several occaisions so they've got it all on file.
...If you already have all of that information on file why the hell do you care about IDs? The government already has about a hundred times more information on you (and more reason to look at it) than would be on a piddly ID card.
Not to mention that forcing the police to waste dollars and manhours needlessly jumping through hoops just to confirm your identity is a big waste of your own tax dollars. Save yourself time and money.
I don't need a card in my pocket for any reason at all, so I don't want one.
And you don't have to have one because as we've established, the card is voluntary.
If you don't want to take out any loans, use a credit card, drive a car, leave the country, have a job, vote or do any of the other myrad things that (quite sensibly) require you to establish your identity, then you're right, you haven't any need for one and by all means shouldn't get one.
If you already do those things and use your driver's license or passport to establish your ideneity, then why the hell does it matter? It's the exact same government, with their hands on the exact same information. Only difference is it's on one card instead of several...big whoop.
The cost of the ID card system is disgusting, it uses untested and flawed technology. It's a huge and unnecessary waste of money.
But has the potential to save money in the long run.
It offers nothing new that existing forms of ID don't already cover.
Want a bank account? Passport or drivers licence
Want a job? Passport or drivers licence
Want to travel? Passport
Want to drive? Drivers licence
And if you're someone who wants to get a job or a bank account or credit card but you don't have any plans to travel and don't know how to drive?
I haven;t got a driver's license or passport, but I've got a job, credit cards, a registered firearm, a concealed firearms license, hell even got a loan to buy a car (for my father), because I have an ID.
I have managed to live for the last 31 years without either.
I don't have a credit card, I don't even have a bank card.
Then why do you care?
If there's already state sponsored forms of identification, and they;re already required for almost every aspect of modern living, then how is a national ID card anything new or threatening? Hell, you've got a police record, which means the government already has all the information they'd ever want about you and more. All an ID would do is make it easier for them to track it down. You don't trust the government with your information...well, they've already got it, mate. They've got more on you than my (equally paranoid, invasive and orwellian) government has on me, and I own firearms.
I could almost see the argument that it's unnecessary...but arguing that completely undermines all your other paranoia-based arguments.
What I have been trying to illustrate, with my mad, insane and paranoid ravings, is that it is a system of control we neither want nor need. The Pro's of ID cards are still massively out weighed by the cons.
The only actual con I've heard is cost.