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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 12:20 PM
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One thing I'm unclear on is whether or not we're expected to pay for ID cards...we pay to make them, by tax, and then possibly pay again? In that case they should be valid replacements for Passports too, why would I pay £6- or whatever for a passport, then another £20 for an ID card? What about the homeless?

I've more problems with this logistically than morally, but there are a lot of issues.
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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury View Post
As for the employment issues, yeah, they want to know that I'm not going to poison everyone in the restaurant, that's what references are for.
And criminals certainly don't know anyone willing to lie on a job reference. And what if you haven't got an employment history or references?

And that doesn't do anything about the need to keep track of people's taxes. Identification makes it harder to cheat on taxes or get out of paying child support, etc. Sure, that's not exactly something to win over an individual, but it's important.

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I shouldn't have to prove that I am allowed to work in the country of my birth.
Why not? I can go over there, accents notwithstanding, and claim to be a native and get all flustered when someone has the temerity to make me prove that I'm eligible to work in 'the country of my birth'. Why should an employer take your word over mine? You may have been born there, but John Shopkeep has no way of knowing that without, say, some form of identification.

Sure, you're an island so you don't have the same illigal immigration problems we've got here, but trust me as an American, I'm *glad* I have to show a card that says I'm a citizen before getting a job because that means the illegal who just hopped the border has to do the same, and can't. (Yes, I'm aware that people do still hire illegals, but they have to do so knowingly, or be duped by phony credentials, either way someone has to break the law and can be punished when it comes out)

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Opening a bank account, yeah of course I need to be able to prove who I am.
The thing is there is no real need for another form of required ID in this country.
How many forms of ID are there already in play? If they already exist, why is this so upsetting?
If you've already got one form of ID in the country, why does it matter? What do you use now to prove your identity to open an account? Plus there's no reason these IDs can't be combined.

Here you can get either a State ID, *or* a Driver's License. They look the same though obviously the id says 'Identification Card' and the driver's license says 'Driver's License' (and the ID has an extra bit saying it's not a driver's license, just in case), and except for the issue of whether or not you're permitted to drive with one, function the same way. If I take the driver's test and pass my driver's license has the exact same information, even the same ID number as my old state ID, it's just got the driving endorsement tacked on.

Hell, we've even got a new 'Enhanced ID' that works like a passport for going to Canada (and maybe Mexico, not sure). If your driver's license is an Enhanced ID you can use it as a driving permit, an ID and a limited passport all in one.

If you've already got driver's licenses and age verification cards, then naturlaly they'd just be folded into the national ID system. Your driver's license would function as an ID card and age verification card. If you don't drive, your ID can double as an age verification card.

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We have age verification cards for anyone who doesn't look 21 so they can buy drinks and smokes, I'm 31, why the fuck would I need to prove I am old enough to buy some beers?
Depends on how old you look and whether or not the barkeep knows you. It's the same thing as the 'why should I have tp prove I'm a citizen' question...people aren't psychic, and would be foolish to take your word for it, knowing that criminals (and kids trying to get wasted) are known to lie about such things.

If you look young for your age, why should I as a business that is subject to heavy fines and loss of operating license, take a chance with my livelihood by selling to someone who, for all I know, could be a minor or even a government sting?

Maybe drinking age enforcement is more lax in the UK, but here it;s serious business.
I sell beer and smokes for a living. I don't even own the shop, ut if I sell to a minor I personally am subject to a $500 fine (on top of getting immediately terminated by the company), the shop itself is subject to a larger fine, and after three such infractions, loses its license to sell alcohol and tobacco, which makes up the vast majority of our income.

Unless you look like my granddad, I'm not risking my money, my job, and the livelihoods of the people I work with because you don't feel you should have to prove your age. I don't feel I should have to sell to someone who doesn't prove their age...and since I'm the one with the beer, I win

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You already have ID cards in the States, have they done any of the things that are being used as an excuse for us to have them? Have they cut fraud, identity theft, terrorism?
That's a loaded question, mate. In large part because we've had IDs for ages, well before fraud, identity theft and terrorism were major concerns.

Has the advent of the police department and legal system done anything to reduce crime? Obviously there's still criminals, so they must do jack all. May as well can the whole criminal justice system and save the taxpayers some money.

It only takes an ounce of common sense to realize that it's a lot harder to claim to be someone else when you have to produce valid documentation to back your point than it would be in a place where they had nothing but your word to go by.

Is it impossible to trick the system? No, of course not. Just like it's not impossible to get a handgun in England if you're so inclined...but it's a lot *harder* to get one than it would be in a place where you can nip down to the corner shop and pick one up. I'm all for making it harder for criminals to be criminals.

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Proving who I am is no one's business until I do something wrong.
That's just flat wrong.
As you've already admitted above, there's plenty of reasons why people would legitimately need to establish your identity.

Hell, just using your bloody credit card makes it the business of anyone you buy from to prove who you are, because for all they know you're a pickpocket who just stole the mastercard of one Norm T Unsavory. Then not only are they doing you a disservice by potentially allowing a thief to use your money for their own, they're also running the risk of losing that money *and* the merchendise if it is proven that the card is stolen.

I get upset when a merchant doesn't want to see my ID after taking my credit card

Talk about reducing fraud, there's some right there. It's not impossible to use my card if you steal it, but you've got to go out of your way and/or hope that the business you're patronizing isn't paying attention.

Quote:
If the police want to check my identity, they ask me, I tell them and they check it out.
And in the meantime, they'll detain you until such time as they have established your identity. Wouldn't you rather just show a piece if plastic and be on your merry way?

Quote:
They can even check my finger prints and DNA, I have been arrested on several occaisions so they've got it all on file.
...If you already have all of that information on file why the hell do you care about IDs? The government already has about a hundred times more information on you (and more reason to look at it) than would be on a piddly ID card.

Not to mention that forcing the police to waste dollars and manhours needlessly jumping through hoops just to confirm your identity is a big waste of your own tax dollars. Save yourself time and money.

Quote:
I don't need a card in my pocket for any reason at all, so I don't want one.
And you don't have to have one because as we've established, the card is voluntary.
If you don't want to take out any loans, use a credit card, drive a car, leave the country, have a job, vote or do any of the other myrad things that (quite sensibly) require you to establish your identity, then you're right, you haven't any need for one and by all means shouldn't get one.

If you already do those things and use your driver's license or passport to establish your ideneity, then why the hell does it matter? It's the exact same government, with their hands on the exact same information. Only difference is it's on one card instead of several...big whoop.

Quote:
The cost of the ID card system is disgusting, it uses untested and flawed technology. It's a huge and unnecessary waste of money.
But has the potential to save money in the long run.

Quote:
It offers nothing new that existing forms of ID don't already cover.
Want a bank account? Passport or drivers licence
Want a job? Passport or drivers licence
Want to travel? Passport
Want to drive? Drivers licence
And if you're someone who wants to get a job or a bank account or credit card but you don't have any plans to travel and don't know how to drive?

I haven;t got a driver's license or passport, but I've got a job, credit cards, a registered firearm, a concealed firearms license, hell even got a loan to buy a car (for my father), because I have an ID.

Quote:
I have managed to live for the last 31 years without either.
I don't have a credit card, I don't even have a bank card.
Then why do you care?
If there's already state sponsored forms of identification, and they;re already required for almost every aspect of modern living, then how is a national ID card anything new or threatening? Hell, you've got a police record, which means the government already has all the information they'd ever want about you and more. All an ID would do is make it easier for them to track it down. You don't trust the government with your information...well, they've already got it, mate. They've got more on you than my (equally paranoid, invasive and orwellian) government has on me, and I own firearms.

I could almost see the argument that it's unnecessary...but arguing that completely undermines all your other paranoia-based arguments.

Quote:
What I have been trying to illustrate, with my mad, insane and paranoid ravings, is that it is a system of control we neither want nor need. The Pro's of ID cards are still massively out weighed by the cons.
The only actual con I've heard is cost.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 03:53 PM
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My personal biggest problems with the I.D. cards are the logistical and technological issues, as I come from a computer security background. Ignorance really is bliss with these things and I don't have it.

1) I.D. cards would be much less worrying if they were internally developed and designed by a Government agency. However, this isn't to be.
Quote:
There are five companies in the running for contracts to create the national ID card. They are IBM, Fujitsu, Computer Sciences Corporation, EDS and Thales.
That's right! The personal security and wellbeing of these records and the people they 'protect' are subject to a reverse bidding war between five multinationals. Whoever offers the lowest fee for developing such a system will be hired by the government to do it. That's incredibly unsettling; our personal details, if they weren't already before, have become a commodity.

2)
Quote:
JACQUI SMITH, the home secretary, has suffered fresh embarrassment from a new Whitehall leak disclosing that ministers are seeking new powers to search the homes of staff working on ID cards.
An 11-page confidential Home Office document – which was sent to a campaigner against ID cards – suggests that the employees’ homes could be entered without the need for a police warrant.
That is incredibly worrying in itself. Leaked information like this is no suprise, as it was supposedly under the protecting of the British government, but that they can even consider treating these employees worse than criminal suspects (That is to say, no need for a warrant) is reason enough to be against such a plan. That's right. The civil rights, security and integrity of these people working on I.D. cards are being stripped...In the name of civil rights, security and integrity. Something doesn't seem quite right here.
(The previous two quotes from a Times article I grabbed from Wikileaks a while back)

3) As previously said, the scheme is run by the British government. As for the simple 'They'll only hold your name and address' argument, even the Home Office website would have to disagree.
Quote:
ID cards are the cornerstone of our national identity scheme, which calls for an easy to use and extremely secure system of personal identification for UK residents.

Each ID card will be unique, and will combine the cardholder’s biometric data with their checked and confirmed identity details - a ‘biographical footprint’. These identity details and the biometrics will be stored on the national identity register. Basic identity information will also be held in a chip on the ID card itself.

The cards will be linked to their owners by unique biometric information (for example, fingerprints). This is needed to ensure that your card is really yours, and to protect you from identity theft.
Personally, I can't help but worry, as Government officials have themselves stated that there will be one central national database for these. Add this to the fact that records DO get lost or stolen from time to time. It'd be great if we could be idealistic and optimistic, but realistically, this government has a large vote of no confidence when it comes to people's records, and this is hardly the kind of thing that people will trust with the sheer amount of losses that have happened over the last few years.

4) RFID, no matter how you look at, is a system of passive transmission, and therefore is NOT secure.
With the sheer amount and power of hardware these days, an encrypted RFID (or any other) file is a hinderance and is time consuming, and not a brick wall to stop a person from ever getting the information. Inherently, RFID is made for ease of use and not security.

As for breaking encryption files, there are powerful multi-core systems that can be networked in parallel and work as a cloud system out on the public market. They are relatively affordable, and look like toastie machines. They are PS3s and are great for this kind of thing.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/14006...passwords.html

As they are so networkable, as proven by a nice group of people in Holland (If memory serves) they can work in an array of 30+. That's a lot of calculations per second and not overly expensive for what it does. Cheaper if you buy PS3s with broken drives etc from eBay (Not that I've thought this through. Honest!)


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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingElessar View Post
One thing I'm unclear on is whether or not we're expected to pay for ID cards...we pay to make them, by tax, and then possibly pay again? In that case they should be valid replacements for Passports too, why would I pay 6- or whatever for a passport, then another 20 for an ID card? What about the homeless?

I've more problems with this logistically than morally, but there are a lot of issues.
In my state at least an ID costs about $20 and needs to be renewed every few years. Hardly a backbreaking expense for most people. As for the homeless, remember these are voluntary and also what does a homeless guy need ID for?
No job, car, credit cards, out of country travel and the like to worry about.

WoRLoKKeD brings up a lot of very good and interesting points, and I must say, if the IDs are going to be using RFID, I'm really not a fan.

I've no problems with the government needing its citizens to be able to identify themselves, but using easily compromised technology isn;t the way to go about it.

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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 05:21 PM
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what i am concerened about is the 27 items of personal data that is going to be on it. to quote some commedian i heard i while back:
Quote:
"...i get back home and realise that i have left my wallet back at the hotel. great. now i need plastic surgery on my fingers and new eyeballs."
i cant rember who it was, but it has stuck with me over the past few years from when i first heard it.
serriously though, do we need a peice of plastic that contains everything you need to know about us, and is in the hands of a govt who are not trusted by its own people regarding personal data.

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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-07-09, 11:11 PM
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if they sort out the mentioned security problems, which would mean getting a goverment that actually is worth 2 shits and shooting Mrs Smith for gross idiocy, then i would be happy to get a ID card.

Being able to prove who i am is a useful thing, and it means if anything should happen to me, such as getting hot by a car, and i am unable to say "hi my name is captain blackadder, don't give me penicilin cause it will kill me blood" then all they have to do is pull out this card which tells them all they need to know.

Personally i think they should take it one step further, and recored fingerprints+DNA when your born (or as close to that as possible), and possibly implant a small GPS chip into our gluetus maximus as IMO it would help cut down on crimes such as rape and child-nappins ect.

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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-08-09, 08:42 PM
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Hmmm. Government chip implanted in my body? Especially a GPS-enabled model? Thanks, I'll pass. These days, I can at least leave my cell phone at home to avoid the government satellite tracking

Seriously, I'd be against a mandatory chip. My government doesn't need to know where I am at all times. Hell, my family doesn't need to know where I am at all times.

My biggest objection is even bringing it up in this thread...considering the objections repeatedly debated thus far, suggesting a system that would validate all of them seems a bit unwise



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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-08-09, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by loyalist42 View Post
Hmmm. Government chip implanted in my body? Especially a GPS-enabled model? Thanks, I'll pass. These days, I can at least leave my cell phone at home to avoid the government satellite tracking

Seriously, I'd be against a mandatory chip. My government doesn't need to know where I am at all times. Hell, my family doesn't need to know where I am at all times.

My biggest objection is even bringing it up in this thread...considering the objections repeatedly debated thus far, suggesting a system that would validate all of them seems a bit unwise
Even I don't need to know where I am at all times.

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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-09-09, 01:24 AM
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when did we go from ID cards to implanted tracking chips?

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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-09-09, 01:29 AM
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Somewhere between Blackadder and rape...
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