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post #61 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-26-09, 12:29 PM
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my deffinitions of govt.:
communsium-equality with out freedom
captilsium-freedom with out equality
anarchy-freedom and equality
guess which socity i want to live in.

humm, true. This is yet again proof the Orks are smarter the Elves.-Micklez
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post #62 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-26-09, 06:46 PM
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Can you explain the lack of freedom in communism? Other posters seem rather worried that communism would be too much freedom, so I'm interested in why you think the opposite.

Not sure how you'd fit "Anarchist Communism" "Anarcho-Syndicalism" or "Class Struggle Anarchism" into your scheme either, whether you mean only Individualist Anarchism or not.

I have a lot of problems with Individualist Anarchism, in that it claims that there is no need for a state (with which I agree) but it generally leaves capitalism (the other of the twin evils infesting the world) untouched, as economic relationships are a matter of 'free contract', which I think is rubbish. In other words there might be "freedom" (personally, I doubt it) but there'd be no equality.

The differences between Class-struggle Anarchism (in its different forms) and Marxism (not 'communism') are; that Marxism believes in the need for a party of the working class whereas Anarchism uses other methods of organisation; and that Anarchists believe in "immediate communisation" while Marxists believe in "the period of transition".

But the aim of both is "communism".

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Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #63 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 12:01 AM
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Red Orc, in answering your question, let me first establish what Communism purports to be.

Communism is a theory which states that as a society reaches industrial development, the top class of a feudal society will be replaced by a new class of industrial entrepreneurs, the Bourgeoisie.

These Bourgeoisie however, in order to reach and maintain their success, will have to exploit the vast lower or working class created by Industrialisation, the Proletariat. Over time the Proletariat will realise they are being exploited as a class, forming a class consciouness that will enable them to collectively overthrow the Bourgeoisie, before a transistionary dictatorship oversees a passage to a anarchic society in which the only authority is the interests of the greater good.

Therefore the Greater Good would become the tyranny because a class consciousness would be required to exist perpetually, eliminating choice of action as a neccessity for the society to survive. Before long some clever and charismatic figure would arise capable of manipulaiting the belief in the greater good for their own benefit.

It happens in Animal Farm and given human nature would quickly happen in any modern communist society.
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post #64 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 10:04 AM
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Except, there is no reason or mechanism for the "greater good" as you put it to become the new tyranny. In a world without classes (which communism will be) there is no mechanism for one non-existant class to dominate another non-existant class. No group in society has the power to dominate another group, because everyone has a share in power. So there is no new tyranny. "Class consciousness" disappears with class society, and "human consciousness" takes its place.

What happens in Animal Farm as you know is an allegory for what happened in the USSR, where the new elite emerged in a country that did not manage to extend the revolution beyond its own borders.

Capitalism was not overthrown, therefore the revolution failed, therefore communism was never established; and as communism was never established, saying what would or wouldn't inevitably happen to it, I'm afraid, just guessing; and the appeal to "human nature" is just mumbo-jumbo.

"Human nature" is a construct that depends very much on where you happen to be standing. Stangely enough in previous epochs and in other societies, the view of human nature has been whatever tends to support the political and economic status quo. In this society, the prevailing orthodoxy is that humans are brutal and need to be oppressed. What a surprise that this supports the political and economic staus quo.

"The ruling ideas of any epoch are the ideas of the ruling class" as Karl Marx said. The current (200-year-old) view of "human nature" is merely the idea of human nature that best fits the ideology of capitalist domination. It's bunk, in short.

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Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #65 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 01:46 PM
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In any society where power was in the hands of the majority, or in Communism's case in the hands of everyone, then the majority interest would prevail as 'the greater good', which is what I meant by the term. Even in such a society people would still retain concepts of morality, of what was right and wrong, which they would use as a benchmark for what was acceptable in the new society. Those concepts which found the most acceptance and agreement among people would form the basis of an unofficial system of law and order. However since they would be based on public opinion rather than legislation their would inevitably be those who felt themselves disadvantaged as a result.

While Animal Farm is indeed an allegory of what happened in the USSR, it is also Orwell's critique of the Communist idea and what it would inevitably result in.

As for Human nature, what I was referring to is the proven acceptance of authority figures by the people, as shown in tests conducted in American universites where volunteers were adminstering electroshocks, or thought they were, everytime a person they were questioning answered incorrectly, simply because someone in a white coat told them to.

All it would take in a communist society would be a major disaster such as a drought for people to look to someone for leadership. Once that happened the communist society would come to an end because if a person is invested with absolute power, as would be the case in a society deviod of alternative governance, then it would likely corrupt them.
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post #66 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 02:06 PM
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So let's get this straight: dictatorship is good, because that's the natural order, and communism is bad, because it leads to dictatorship?

I don't get it. What you seem to be saying is "communism promotes the natural order of man, which is to be dominated".

Of course, you're probably right that communism might not be the easiest way of being dominated by a dictator, that would probably be us all surrenduring to the North Koreans.

By the way, you did know Orwell was a socialist, who identified with the Trotskyists (Goldstein in 1984, Snowball in Animal Farm), said through Winston Smith "the future is in the proles" (ie believed in the workers' revolution against the Party machine) and fought for the POUM (United Marxist Workers Party) in Spain and was sympathetic to the Spanish Anarchists, don't you? Orwell was for communism. He was against the hell-hole of Stalinism that was the death of the revolution.

What human beings do in a decomposing capitalist society is not necessarily a good indicator of what they would do in a different society. I'm starting a new thread on 'human nature' because so many people talk such a lot of crap about it that I thought we could do it somewhere other than the "capitalism v communism" thread. Suffice it to say that reject the notion of a fixed 'human nature'.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #67 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Orc View Post
So let's get this straight: dictatorship is good, because that's the natural order, and communism is bad, because it leads to dictatorship?

I don't get it. What you seem to be saying is "communism promotes the natural order of man, which is to be dominated".

Of course, you're probably right that communism might not be the easiest way of being dominated by a dictator, that would probably be us all surrenduring to the North Koreans.

By the way, you did know Orwell was a socialist, who identified with the Trotskyists (Goldstein in 1984, Snowball in Animal Farm), said through Winston Smith "the future is in the proles" (ie believed in the workers' revolution against the Party machine) and fought for the POUM (United Marxist Workers Party) in Spain and was sympathetic to the Spanish Anarchists, don't you? Orwell was for communism. He was against the hell-hole of Stalinism that was the death of the revolution.

What human beings do in a decomposing capitalist society is not necessarily a good indicator of what they would do in a different society. I'm starting a new thread on 'human nature' because so many people talk such a lot of crap about it that I thought we could do it somewhere other than the "capitalism v communism" thread. Suffice it to say that reject the notion of a fixed 'human nature'.
Yes I know Orwell was a socialist, but I also know he was deeply critical of the infighting amongst the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War. Also not long after World War Two Orwell worked for MI5 spying on those of his peers he considered sympathetic to the Soviet Union. As to your first point the natural order of man is to be dominated, which is why so much of Human history has seen a small group of people dominate a larger one. Its only in the last few centuries that this has begun to chance with the development of parliamentary democracy, it only takes one mistake to reverse this trend and end up with a society like that of 1984.

After all even when O'brien is torturing him, Winston can not help but admire the man's intelligence as superior to his own, and remember O'brien's infamous prediction.
'If you want a picture of the future Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever.'
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post #68 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 10:31 PM
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I think that for a majority of human history we lived in groups of about 20 in which there was no real social structure other then that of perhaps an elder who knew the migration patterns the group needed to follow.

Still humans do a have a tendency to look for others to tell them what to do. I would like to think it's not necessarily part of human nature, but more a product of the societies humans have been living in for the past several thousand years.
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post #69 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 10:51 PM
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I cant say much because Col. Schaffer basically said what I would say. Communism would work if it was used in a stable government and on a small scale. I hate capitalism for so many different reasons that I wont state right now but, I would prefer communism.

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post #70 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-27-09, 11:21 PM
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Yes I know Orwell was a socialist, but I also know he was deeply critical of the infighting amongst the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War...
...yes, because he opposed Stalinism, ibecause he was for communism...

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...Also not long after World War Two Orwell worked for MI5 spying on those of his peers he considered sympathetic to the Soviet Union...
...because he regarded Stalinism as the greatest threat to human liberty then existing... I think he was wrong to work for MI5, but again and again you put forward Orwell's hatred for the policies og the USSR as evidence of his 'anti-communism' when it is nothing of the sort. He saw Stalin, rightly, as a butcher of socialists, and worked against him.

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...As to your first point the natural order of man is to be dominated, which is why so much of Human history has seen a small group of people dominate a larger one....
Only in the last 6,000 years or so, which is I think the point Cafel is making above. There is no evidence for class society before this date (ie, for the previous 244,000 years of homo sapiens' time on earth, or the 2.4 million years of our hominid ancestors before that). This is the point. "The history of all hitherto existing societies has been the history of class struggle" as Marx and Engels said. There's nothing 'natural' about it, it's the product of particular historical circumstances - like capitalism itself - a situation which had a beginning, and for which it is quite logical to posit an end.

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... Its only in the last few centuries that this has begun to chance with the development of parliamentary democracy...
Not true, the few still dominate the many and class struggle continues.

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... it only takes one mistake to reverse this trend and end up with a society like that of 1984....
Have you ever read "Brave New World"? Appreciate the irony much?

In 1984 (the year not the book), the year the Miners' Strike began in Britain, Margaret Thatcher said that contrary to vision of Orwell, the nightmare society of "1984" had not come to pass; to which a Labour Party wag replied that she was merely speaking with her characteristic modesty.

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... After all even when O'brien is torturing him, Winston can not help but admire the man's intelligence as superior to his own, and remember O'brien's infamous prediction.
'If you want a picture of the future Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever.'
Hmm, you think that O'Brien is the hero of "1984" do you, instead of a shocking psychopath who brutalises others because of his own essential inhumanity, his lack of fellow feeling? How odd. Presumably you cheer when the good old Party breaks Winston and forces him to betray Julia, hurrah the Secret Police got their man, good-oh, the subversives have been rounded up and order restored...

News for you: 1984 is not a dtective story where resourceful Inspector O'Brien nabs the dangerous villain Winston Smith. It is a damning indictment of power and conformity. I advise you not to use it to back up your arguments that we should all be slaves.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



Last edited by Red Orc; 03-27-09 at 11:24 PM.
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