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post #21 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 01:52 PM
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I don't understand the first part of your post. How can your wonder machine be 1 - the genius product of your brain that you want millions of dollars for, and simultaneously no benefit to 'guy at steelworks', who may at some time be ill himself? That makes no sense to me. If it's a social benefit, it's a social benefit. If it's not, it's not. How can it reasonably be both?

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.. the way you describe true communsim gives the impression that there is no true ownership of anything- intellectual, property ect. (or thats how i read it, apologies if i'm wrong) ...
That's more or less right. There's no ownership of machines or land, they're definately social goods used for everybody's benefit... but I guess if you play the guitar, no-one's going to come and take it away from you.

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...so how do you decide who gets the optimum building ground, or planting ground? how do you decide how much growing space people get?
No-one 'gets' the optimum building ground, and no-one decides. if a particular community has a housing problem, let's say, that community decides it needs to build more houses, and it builds more houses.

The land that is best for farming will be used for farming. That's how we 'decide' how much growing space everyone 'gets'. Some places are good for farming, we'll use them for farming. Some places not so good for farming; let's build houses or factories or parks or forests or whatever we decide is best.

So; no one person makes these decisions. They made by the communities that will be affected by them.

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post #22 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 02:04 PM
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I don't understand the first part of your post. How can your wonder machine be 1 - the genius product of your brain that you want millions of dollars for, and simultaneously no benefit to 'guy at steelworks', who may at some time be ill himself? That makes no sense to me. If it's a social benefit, it's a social benefit. If it's not, it's not. How can it reasonably be both?
the point is if the steel mill worker has no additional incentive to produce the steel (it may be easier to cut down trees for wood or mine stone and both build sturdy houses) why will he? he still gets the food, shelter, companionship ect from the community but works harder for it then the tree-feller.

and the problem with the building space is this: say you have a hill next to a river and the river is prone to flooding. The hill has space for 5 houses and cannot go above 2 floors, the slope is too unstable for building on and you need 15 houses, who goes at the bottom of the hill? the farmers? the woodcutters? the children?

Quisnam praesumo, successio
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post #23 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 02:16 PM
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The problem is, in a system where you gain nothing, then there is no reason for innovation. And, as I said, when some jerkoff (and there are plenty of those out there) that decides he's going to do as little as humanly possible, and the absolute minimum the state department requires, and still recieve the same benefits that I do even though I have an education, the fact that I am classified as, "essential personnel," the fact that I am required to be on call, the fact that my department is a 24/7/365 environment, frankly pisses me off. So, in a society like that, I'm not going to bother sending my kids for an advanced degree in anything--I'm going to look into jobs that require no effort, no overtime, no nights, no weekends, nothing above and beyond, and push for that. Sure, if my kids want to do more, then that is their right. But, I'm not going to push for them to do a position like mine when they can be at home nights and weekends with their families (when the time comes) instead of going above and beyond.

It's human nature to take the path of least resistance. Why go ahead of the crowd when you can recieve the same benefits by doing the minimum?

So, yeah, I have no use for communism. In a perfect world, if everyone were on the same page and actually working toward the same goal, and not trying to abuse the system (which, we gotta face it, is going to happen--it happens now, even in a, "capitolist pig," society ), then sure, it'd be fantastic. But hey, I'm a realist when it comes to understanding human nature.

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post #24 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 02:31 PM
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... In a perfect world, if everyone were on the same page and actually working toward the same goal, and not trying to abuse the system (which, we gotta face it, is going to happen--it happens now, even in a, "capitolist pig," society ), then sure, it'd be fantastic. But hey, I'm a realist when it comes to understanding human nature.
Difficult to understand what you mean here. You seem to be saying "hey, even in the hellish conditions of capitalism, people can work together", which I agree with, and "so, in the better conditions of communism, they wouldn't because it's against human nature", which is obviously tosh.

You may of course be rather confusedly complaining that people abuse the system in capitalism, it's difficult to tell. Of course they do, why not? The system abuses them after all, and it also promotes violence, greed and short-termism as the solutions to problems. Quelle surprise that violence greed and short-termism are regarded as legitimate strategies. Who would have expected that?

The fact is, humans were 'communists' ('primitive communism' to be sure, but a form of communism nevertheless) until approximately 6,000 years ago when class societies started to come about (and in many places for a long time after, there may indeed still be primitive communist societies in the world for all I know). But for 244,000 of its 250,000 years, homo sapiens has been communist. It's only been capitalist for less than 500. So WTF with the appeals to human nature? Are you seriously telling me that for 97.6% of the time that humanity has existed, it was 'against its own nature' and only in the last 0.2% of its existence has it revealed its true nature?

That, quite frankly, is a load of bollocks. It's not even a theory, it's just rubbish.

EDIT: realised my percentages were off, now corrected I hope.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #25 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 02:40 PM
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the point is if the steel mill worker has no additional incentive to produce the steel (it may be easier to cut down trees for wood or mine stone and both build sturdy houses) why will he? he still gets the food, shelter, companionship ect from the community but works harder for it then the tree-feller...
Incentive additional to what? Does society need steel? Let's just assume it does. Does it need bread? Again, let's assume yes. Likewise books, food, schools, drainage, electricity, a coastguard, buses, houses and a gazillion other things. How do these things get produced? By people making and doing them. If people don't, then things don't get done.

Who's going to sit in the dark going "Ha! I may be hungry and cold and not be able to speak a language and have already died of dysentry, but at least I didn't have to work for anyone else!" because not even the stupidest and most selfish pro-capitalist waste of space and talent is going to be that stupid. I mean, how much of an asshat do you have to be? I mean, FFS, it's not even that bad now. People do work for more than themselves. I think they'd be more inclined to do so if they weren't abused and impoverished for doing it, instead as it is their 'hard earned money' (really, socially-useful labour) that they don't even get to see 90% of, is robbed from them by the entire system and crumbs are given back.

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and the problem with the building space is this: say you have a hill next to a river and the river is prone to flooding. The hill has space for 5 houses and cannot go above 2 floors, the slope is too unstable for building on and you need 15 houses, who goes at the bottom of the hill? the farmers? the woodcutters? the children?
Don't build a house on the flood plain? "Communism on one hill" is a nonesense. You have a whole planet to chose from. Build it somewhere else. The land doesn't "belong" to a housebuilder. If it's good farmland (meadows, for instance) farm it, and put the houses elsewhere. It's pretty simple really.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



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post #26 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 04:16 PM
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Incentive additional to what? Does society need steel? Let's just assume it does. Does it need bread? Again, let's assume yes. Likewise books, food, schools, drainage, electricity, a coastguard, buses, houses and a gazillion other things. How do these things get produced? By people making and doing them. If people don't, then things don't get done.
whereas society does need all these things why is someone going to go to all of the effort to produce steel which is difficult and labour intensive when they can do a easier job such as being a baker and recieve the same benefits. Right now the additional incentive is more money for their effort, more money = more comfort of living. Without this additional benefit you won't find many willing to work harder, longer and with a greater skill set needed for the same outcome.

Quisnam praesumo, successio
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post #27 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 05:41 PM
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Do you really think steelworkers are living in luxury compared to bakers now? If not, your argument unfortunately makes no sense.

But, assuming there is a rational to your argument, or at least a point to your question:

Because if people don't do it, it doesn't get done... how can a "baker" bake bread without an oven? How can a "transport worker" provide an oven if no-one's made one? How can a "maker of ovens" make ovens without metal? How can a "metalworker" make metal if he hasn't had his breakfast from the baker?

Society is an integrated whole. You can't just hive bits off and say "ah what about this?", it doesn't work.

Some things that are really shit will still need doing. We, as a society, will have to decide how those things get done. Some communists and anarchists see the fairest way of doing that (at least in the short term) as being labour-time vouchers; you put in effort, you get the vouchers for the time you put in, this entitles you to certain benefits. Maybe especially horrible jobs (like cleaning out the sewers) would get more 'labour-time vouchers'.

Other communists and anarchists favour a rota system; this week, it's everyone on your street's turn to clean the sewers; next week, it'll be another street's.

Others favour a lottery; unfortunately this week it's your street's turn... never mind, next week, it might not be you. A more sophisticated version of this would 'deal you out' next time around.

What all communists and class-struggle anarchists agree on however, is that the process of overthrowing capitalism will engender such a spirit of co-operation and mutual aid in problem-solving, of working together, that 1 - these kind of problems will be relatively easy to solve with the maximum of debate; and 2 - it's up to us, not the anarchy of the 'free market', to solve them.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



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post #28 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 05:52 PM
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Because if people don't do it, it doesn't get done...
thats the point i'm making, why is someone going to go to the trouble of doing the more difficult/horrible jobs such as sewer maintenence when they can do a easier/more pleasent job for the same outcome. And if ithe jobs aren't done then society does collapse.

and whereas steelworkers and bakers may be living in the same condition, bakers have a far less demanding job physically so if you had a choice of being either a baker or a steelworker for the same wage (lets say £6.50 per hour) and have the same working hours, which job would you choose to do? personally i'd rather be a baker.

Quisnam praesumo, successio

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post #29 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 05:59 PM
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Because it's not the same outcome. A bakery; or a bakery full of shit. Which would you rather work in, or eat food from? Why is anyone going to chose to bake bread up to their knees in shit? Why would anyone chose to eat it?

At the moment, they do it because there's no economic incentive to do otherwise, in fact rather the reverse (look at that butcher in S Wales who killed that 5-year-old with e.coli, or the miilions of people in Africa who have no access to clean water or proper sewage-disposal because it's not 'economic'). Under communism, we'd all have a responsibility to ourselves and everyone else to see it didn't happen.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #30 of 144 (permalink) Old 03-24-09, 06:10 PM
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yes right now there are fines and such for dirty bakeries ect. and that works well with our system, but your saying that in a communist system they only have a responsibility to keep it clean and just what is keeping the people responsible?

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