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post #141 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-21-09, 11:50 AM
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Well done to Red Orc and Cabbage for one of the best threads I have had the pleasure to follow in a very long time!
All too often emotions run high in these debates and they descend into arguments and bad feeling, not here though.
If I could rep you both on here I would, but I'll have to settle for for a big imaginary pat on the back.
Well done for a great debate, well written, well thought out and well tempered.

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post #142 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-28-09, 10:14 PM
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communisim is a great idea in theory ( everyone is equal, everone pulls their own weight, no benifit leaching scum)
but in practice (it has been proven by every country to try i) it fails.(altho china seams to be doing ok and its still sort of communist)
it is human nature to seek power and those with power will eventualy abuse it .
a sad truth.

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post #143 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-29-09, 12:08 AM
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Red Orc do you just have the standard, 'There has never been a true communist society in recent history, ect. ect.' just written down so you can copy paste it at this point? Cause if not, then I might end up doing that.

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post #144 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-29-09, 01:37 PM
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Im a bit late coming to this discussion :D.

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Originally Posted by DAvo001 View Post
communisim is a great idea in theory ( everyone is equal, everone pulls their own weight, no benifit leaching scum)
but in practice (it has been proven by every country to try i) it fails.(altho china seams to be doing ok and its still sort of communist)
it is human nature to seek power and those with power will eventualy abuse it .
a sad truth.
I dont believe its ubiquitous to all of humanity to seek power. For myself Its never been of interest, but then Im a bit of an oddball. I dont believe it is the case that power always leads to abuse, I believe it is possible for a person to be in a position of leadership and have an altruistic nature. I do however believer that people likelly to abuse power will be drawn to achieving power.

I dont believe communism can work without compulsion, Dont get me wrong, I can see why people would do things for the good of others, no problems understanding the idea of people doing things out of the goodness of their heart, or for the "state" of the art etc etc. But theres a difference between doing so of free will and "having" to do so. I dont believe that its in the nature of all people to be like this, many are very self centred. Communism doesnt allow for these people. Many people are only motivated by direct visible personal betterment.

I hate the term capitalism, I dont believe in a system based soley on "capital" Where only those with capital have "power". Perhaps in marx's day it was more true than today, but In most countries labelled "capitalist" even the most poor have opportunities to seek rich's should they so desire. The days of the downtrodden working class having no chance to improve their lot in life are long gone - if they ever truelly existed... (although the current financial situation may make starting out on your own harder).

I prefer "freedom" or "opportunity" or "choice". I believe strongly that every man and woman should have the freedom to pursue their own path. If wealth and influence is what they want, let them seek after it. I could be classed as a capitalist if it wasnt for the fact that I disagreed strongly with the basis of the term. I believe that in a "capitalist" society I have the opportunity to seek wealth should I desire it, Im glad the chance is there for those whom that brings joy.

For myself Ive made a lot choices not chase after wealth or power. Thats not where my heart is, For me its my choice to live in a relatively rural coastal area, where theres low demand and low wages for my skills, I choose it because the beauty of the natural environment, the atmosphere etc... Its worth more to me than higher wages, I like the fact my kids go to school not in something looking like a industrial park cum prison, but in a quite beautifull old stone built building (whilst being decently modern indoors). I have a job that whilst no where near testing my abilities pays enough money to put food on the table and roof over our heads. I dont feel the need to chase the trappings of wealth, I dont mind struggling a bit financially for the sake of an easy going family life.

I quite enjoy improvising to save money, I build 90% of our furniture I do all the maintenance on the house, If I want something I make it happen, rather than buying it off the shelf. Not so long ago I built a new modular corner sofa a 8'x4' 2 layer table that gets used as both a dining table on one level take the top off and its a 8'x4' gaming table underneath. Out of the left over wood Im building an arcade style cockpit for my space sim gaming. I Like the fact that I have a CHOICE to be able to do this. I can without feeling guilt make these things and not worry that Im "consuming" more than my share or someone saying that I dont "need" these things.

I dont believe a system that provides only for ones "needs" of food and shelter is utopian, to me a world in which I get what I need and have no opportunity to get what I "want" is drudgery and hell. I believe that pursuit of ones wants as well is necesary for happiness. Hust because I dont CHOOSE to pursue wealth doesnt mean I dont support the freedom of those who do. How in a "perfect" communism system does it get decided who gets what? Who is "allowed" wood to build furniture who is allowed furniture ready built, who gets this that or the other, or do PC's grow on trees in plenty enough to be handed out to all? Resources are finite once all the world is fed who exactly gets what? and who decides what goes where?

I dont believe our forms of Government "repress" the poor, I dont believe that a bin man is forced to be a bin man. I believe that anyone has the freedom to chase their dreams. I also believe people have the freedom to help the less fortunate. Whilst this may well be outside the scope of "pure" capitalism I dont believe its outside of either human nature or freedom of choice.

My view is that to the same degree as there has never been a true Communist system that there has never been a "true" capitalist system, But I believe Im far happier for a system that leans towards what people call "capitalist" than I would posibly be under anything that leans towards what people would refer to as "communist".

I reject the totally the idea of communism as much as I do the idea of "pure" capitalism. I dont believe human hapiness can be achieved under either, I dont believe that "capitalism" as we have it enforces class's or divides. I dont think you have to start with an inherited fortune to earn money. I believe that if any person wants it badly enough they can achieve wealth, I applaud a system that allows that. I applaud a system that allows the freedom of choice to attempt to achieve your dreams.

I think if anything is true of human nature it is diversity any extreme regime is destined to fail unless it takes into account the diversity of mankinds needs \ desires and happiness. Lets face it as a species mankind is kind of given to "messing up" and "making bad decisions". No system is idiot proof, the best thing a system can be is "flexible".

Last edited by dtq; 04-29-09 at 01:42 PM.
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