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post #121 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-17-09, 04:35 PM
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[quote=Red Orc;363098], but beyond that it's just a religion that humanity is incapable of implememnting communism.[quote]

Unfortunately as we've discussed ad nauseum above your counter that humanity could ever implement true communism is an even less supportable idea.

IMO
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post #122 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-17-09, 11:05 PM
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I think were going round in spheres here (like circles only worse), so heres how i see it:

True communism could work, if the human population was lowered (either through war/famine/diesease ect.) to lower then 10% of the current number. At this level there becomes a real need for humanity to work together in order to survive. Because there will be less people there will be less "repeating" of jobs everyone will have their job and reap the same benefit.

Quisnam praesumo, successio
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post #123 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-18-09, 03:50 AM
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I think were going round in spheres here (like circles only worse), so heres how i see it:

True communism could work, if the human population was lowered (either through war/famine/diesease ect.) to lower then 10% of the current number. At this level there becomes a real need for humanity to work together in order to survive. Because there will be less people there will be less "repeating" of jobs everyone will have their job and reap the same benefit.
And as I see it, thats not the case.

Even if we regressed as a species my contention is that due to our very nature and individuality some of us will naturally rise to poisitions of leadership. This could happen by calculation, by accident, by virtue of punching power or any number of reasons.

The idea that we would all suddenly become nice equal people is IMO ludicrous.

Human beings are nice, nasty, violent, pacifist, intelligent, stupid, strong willed, weak willed, fat, thin, considerate, selfish, boring, interesting, blind, sighted, healthy, sickly, arrogant, humble, loud, quiet, lazy, industrious ..............................................

Even in the natural kingdom there are very few, if any, examples of truly equal societies, maybe sardines? And certainly none that I can think of from species with more developed brains.
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post #124 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-18-09, 04:40 PM
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Humans are contradictory, cabbage... have I ever said they weren't?

Do you think if the world was a giant prison camp, where food arrived in containers dropped from the sky, bundled up with guns and ammo, let's say, people would would be nastier to each other than they are now?

If they wouldn't in your opinion, then fair enough, your view is that people act the same regardless of their social conditions. I can only prove that wrong by actually changing social conditions, which I'm not in a position to do. It does mean that we can stop arguing with each other, however.

If you think they would be more violent or selfish, then you agree with me that behaviour is at least partially determined by environment. Thus, it would seem logical that you would also agree that changing the environment people live in can lead to changing behaviour.

For instance, if you believe that some people will always seek to dominate others, as you seem to think is the case, changing the political environment to one where domination is more difficult, because more people (in the case of communism, practically everyone) are involved in decision-making, seems more semnsible to me than a situation where where the biggest thugs and biggest thieves get to dictate to the rest of us.

Now you may consider that it would never be enough; we can never make the world a comfortable enough place that people will respond be reducing their greed and competitiveness to a level where we can all get along. But even if you do believe this, I'd still argue that it's better to try to be better people, to be more considerate of our fellow human beings, to replace greed with solidarity, violence with dialogue, suspicion with trust.

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post #125 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-18-09, 05:03 PM
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The idea that we would all suddenly become nice equal people is IMO ludicrous.
i never said that people will magically become nice and equal, i said that people will work together in order to survive.

And i disagree that somebody will gain leadership by force or other means as its harder for these people to gain support when faced with low numbers, as everyone relies on each other for survival so therefore are unwilling to risk theor lives or their families.

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post #126 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-18-09, 09:27 PM
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Now you may consider that it would never be enough; we can never make the world a comfortable enough place that people will respond be reducing their greed and competitiveness to a level where we can all get along. But even if you do believe this, I'd still argue that it's better to try to be better people, to be more considerate of our fellow human beings, to replace greed with solidarity, violence with dialogue, suspicion with trust.
I completely agree with this point. The problem, however, is how to have a system in which this could work - rather than a "survival of the fittest" scenario that promotes competition and not getting along. I don't think that true democracy could work simply because it would be tedious to vote for most things and voters and votes can be manipulated by other people. At the moment I cannot think of a system that would work on a large scale (no not communism and definitely not anarchism).

People do change with their environment - do you talk the same way to your parents and teachers as you do to your friends? of course you don't. More convincing evidence is the number of troops coming back from vietnam who were doing heroin but stopped when they came home (pretty sure this is true but I could be wrong). However, an easier way to get people to get along would be to brainwash them - sad as it would be - especially if you got to them early enough. "Give me a child for the first 5 years of his life and I shall make him mine forever," said Lenin and it just might make any of these systems work. It's certainly allowed us to accept capitalism.

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post #127 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-19-09, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Orc View Post
Humans are contradictory, cabbage... have I ever said they weren't?

Do you think if the world was a giant prison camp, where food arrived in containers dropped from the sky, bundled up with guns and ammo, let's say, people would would be nastier to each other than they are now?

If they wouldn't in your opinion, then fair enough, your view is that people act the same regardless of their social conditions. I can only prove that wrong by actually changing social conditions, which I'm not in a position to do. It does mean that we can stop arguing with each other, however.

If you think they would be more violent or selfish, then you agree with me that behaviour is at least partially determined by environment. Thus, it would seem logical that you would also agree that changing the environment people live in can lead to changing behaviour.

For instance, if you believe that some people will always seek to dominate others, as you seem to think is the case, changing the political environment to one where domination is more difficult, because more people (in the case of communism, practically everyone) are involved in decision-making, seems more semnsible to me than a situation where where the biggest thugs and biggest thieves get to dictate to the rest of us.

Now you may consider that it would never be enough; we can never make the world a comfortable enough place that people will respond be reducing their greed and competitiveness to a level where we can all get along. But even if you do believe this, I'd still argue that it's better to try to be better people, to be more considerate of our fellow human beings, to replace greed with solidarity, violence with dialogue, suspicion with trust.
My main point is that people never act 'the same'. Our individuality is what makes us people. It is that individuality that makes 'true' communism an impossible goal IMO.

I usually cover myself with 'IMO' when stating opinions. For one point however I think i'd go a step further. The human species will always have a range of personalities from overbearing through dominant to subserviant. That I believe is fact not supposition. If we accept that fact, and I don't see how not, I do not believe this true communism can ever work.

The nearest the species has had to democracy (where everybody votes on every issue) was in democratic athens. This is not to be confused with the current western system where we elect representatives to a parliament of some kind. The Athenian system became almost anarchy with all the power invested in the greatest orators. The people best able to influence the crowd with speeches became the most powerful. ie a heirarchical system.

I do think you are correct in that environment does influence behaviour. However that will always be balanced by genetics. I do not think you can change the environment to such an extent that our individuality will be completely submerged 'for the greater good'. In the same way that genetic clones will grow up with different personalities because you can never rule out the effect of environment.

I also agree that we should strive to be nice to each other. It is something I try to do in normal daily life. However that is my individual choice and the imposition of a truly communist system will not make me better or worse at it.

You've also put it to us that it is better to live with solidarity, dialogue and trust than greed, violence and suspicion. That is IMO political nonsense, it is of course true but nonsense neverthe less. I do not feel that I currently live in a society which is defined as greedy, violent and suspicious. I agree that all are present as are dialogue, solidarity and trust. I am British and most posters on this forum are European, North American or Antipodean. Few if any countries from this block can be considered as horrible as you imply.

Shit, more later late to teach!!

Last edited by the cabbage; 04-19-09 at 07:18 AM. Reason: typing in breaks between lessons
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post #128 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-19-09, 07:58 AM
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i never said that people will magically become nice and equal, i said that people will work together in order to survive..
But IMO it would take magic to make people behave as you say for anything except the immediate aftermath of any cataclysmic event.

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And i disagree that somebody will gain leadership by force or other means as its harder for these people to gain support when faced with low numbers, as everyone relies on each other for survival so therefore are unwilling to risk theor lives or their families.
I can't see any logic in that argument at all. Less people means less competition for the leadership. And going back in history to when the population was only 10% of the current (not sure exactly when but more recent that you think) the species still managed to get into a few right old tear ups.
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post #129 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-19-09, 03:40 PM
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... "Give me a child for the first 5 years of his life and I shall make him mine forever," said Lenin ...
Actually I think you'll find it was Josef Goebbels.

And he was quoting Ignatius Loyala I believe.

Both of these are about as far from Lenin as you can get. Honestly, if I'd said "ein Reich, ein Volk, ein Fuhrer", as Jesus said, many Christians would be up in arms (maybe a few wouldn't). But it kind of demonstrates the next point...

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...and it just might make any of these systems work. It's certainly allowed us to accept capitalism.
Absolutely. Part of the way it's done it is by confusing communism with its opposite - in other woords, deliberately lying about what communism is. Both the so-called democracies and the so-called workers' states (and so-called peoples' republics and all the rest) colluded in the lie that Stalinism = Communism. And that is repeated ad nauseum.

And then there are people who just say outrageous and untrue things, like Lenin lied about his Marxism, and Marx didn't believe it anyway - either they believe some bullshit someone's told them without ever checking it out themselves, or they've really misunderstood something, or they're just making shit up; or, and I'll happily say that it might have been an error, that Lenin was a Jesuit; but again, it demonstrates the point that the ideologies we are brought up with - in our case, a rabidly anti-communist one - have a profound impact on our thinking... and in that much at least, Ignatius Loyala and Josef Goebbels had a point.

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Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
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post #130 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-19-09, 03:47 PM
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... going back in history to when the population was only 10% of the current (not sure exactly when but more recent that you think) the species still managed to get into a few right old tear ups.
Archaeologists keep upping the population estimates of ancient civilisations. Every few years they make the figures bigger. Not certain what the current figures are for world population, but in the field of British demography, the estimates for the Roman period have more then trebled over the last 50 years or so. So it's quite probable that the population graphs that show an explosion over the last 3-400 years are actually way wrong, and the populations of the Mesolithic (around 7,000BC) and before are higher than you think.

Not that I agree with Lawrence that we need to kill 90% of the population for communism to work. I think that's madness. The whole point of communism, as I see it, is that we don't have to kill anybody (unlike capitalism, of course).

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"


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