Another controversial discussion! (Capitalism vs Communism) - Page 12 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #111 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 11:37 AM
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Lets keep the nation bashing and insult slinging out of this thread please everyone. Whatever your political view is, stick to debating your opinions without name calling
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post #112 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 08:48 PM
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#$%@ America!!!!
Wow, I'm not even american and I think that is completely unacceptable. Don't post in this part of the forum if your going to insult people. I'm not the biggest fan of the US but I wouldn't go so far as to say what you said.

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post #113 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 09:09 PM
 
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Ha ha, you guys are so ignorant. Don't worry though, I won't pursue this matter any further. I am pretty jaded with arguing about politics these days cause frankly there are extremely scummy on both side of the fence.
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post #114 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 09:14 PM
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Getting angry over somebody saying f*ck America, especially when that is the country you live in and love is not ignorant in my book, or many others for that matter.

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post #115 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 09:37 PM
 
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You guys are totally right..........
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post #116 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-16-09, 12:42 AM
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go capitalism!!!! I'm all for dog eat dog life style. You're not fit to be on top, suck it up and live the life you're meant to live. Work your way up to the top through capitalism, ooorrrr..... be a massed number and dutifully live your life under the evil of communism!

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post #117 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-16-09, 02:03 AM
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Dont give me poor single mother crap because it was her choice whether to go to collage or not, and when to have kids.
I'm sorry, I just can't let this argument slide like the rest of you, who apparently got distracted by that anti-American sentiment on the same page.

zabo, there are PLENTY of examples of people not having a choice whether or not to go to college, and ESPECIALLY not having control over whether or not to have children! Any extremist conservative nation-state, for example , would be likely to outlaw abortion, or at least restrict it to cases where the mother's life wasn't at risk - something even a lot of Americans would like to see. If this WERE the case (and I'm sure you can easily find yourself a country where this IS the case) then rape victims get no choice whatsoever.
Poverty, or an inadequate education system are the most common problems with people not going to college...which is the product of a CAPITALIST society, aas cost-effectiveness is more important than regular old effectiveness.

I think, surely, we can all agree that perfect communism would quite simply be better than any form of capitalism?
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post #118 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-16-09, 05:17 PM
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You do realize that even Marx thought communism couldn't work because people are naturally competitive and the strong ultimately seize power, right? ...
I trust you can back that up with quotes from Marx? If you can't, I call bullshit.

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It's great on paper, but it doesn't work due to human nature...
Speculation. It doesn't work due to capitalists murdering communists, certainly (it may be human nature that all supporters of capitalism are murderous bastards, but I'm certain I would never claim that), but beyond that it's just a religion that humanity is incapable of implememnting communism.

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Lenin and Mao both used Marx's writings as a way to inspire people to back their government-- nothing more...
Absolutely wrong, at least in Lenin's case. I couldn't care less about Mao, he was a murderer plain and simple. But I think again that you have to demonstrate that Lenin 'used' Marxism as a ploy (which is what you are suggesting). Are you seriously claiming that he only pretended to be a Marxist, even 30 years before the October Revolution?

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post #119 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-16-09, 10:46 PM
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I trust you can back that up with quotes from Marx? If you can't, I call bullshit.
Nope Red Orc I distinctly recall that one day Marx looked down at his treatise and said "Fuck this shit" before going off and opening an iron works.





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Absolutely wrong, at least in Lenin's case. I couldn't care less about Mao, he was a murderer plain and simple. But I think again that you have to demonstrate that Lenin 'used' Marxism as a ploy (which is what you are suggesting). Are you seriously claiming that he only pretended to be a Marxist, even 30 years before the October Revolution?
I wouldn't say that I thought tha Lenin wasn't a Marxist, but I do believe his formation of Centralized Democracy was the seed of many of the problems that you see in the USSR. It allows Stalin to gain power so completely and it kept the goverment from having an chance to shift power entirely to the people, which might have allowed them to be competitive in modern markets.

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post #120 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-17-09, 01:58 PM
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Well cafel, I'd certainly agree with you that Lenin was wrong about many things. He believed that the socialist party had to take power on behalf of the workers like any bourgeois politician does, which means he hadn't broken from 'parliamentary cretinism' as much as he had supposed. The fusion of the Bolsheviks with the state was a huge accelerator of the degeneration of the revolution. The counter-revolution triumphed (and started murdering revolutionaries) through the agency of the workers' party. That travesty left the term "communist" tainted in many people's minds even to this day.

Even if the revolution and the workers' party in Russia hadn't degenerated (somehow), it would be impossible for socialism to exist in one country. To argue that the Soviet government just needed to adopt 'different policies' is to fall into the logic of Stalinism. "Socialism in one country" is impossible, no matter what policies are adopted. "Handing power over to the people" would have resulted in... capitalist restoration, as a theoretical "people's USSR" would still have had to compete economically and militarily with the west. Either, a group would have arisen inside the USSR to 'seize control of the state in the temporary emergency' (which is effectively what happened) or the Germans, British, Americans, Canadians, Japanese, Poles, Serbians, Italians, and any others I've forgotten about who were occupying the USSR, would have just massacred the revolutionaries and restored the Tsar.

I don't see 'democratic centralism' in itself as being a problem though, as I understand it, it means that if you're in an organisation, in which you have an input into decision making, you need to abide by the decisions of that organisation, even if they go against you. I think that's just basic politeness, apart from anything else.

Still, it's a long way from being wrong to being a liar, which is what SoH accused Lenin, and possibly Marx too, of being.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



Last edited by Red Orc; 04-17-09 at 02:06 PM.
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