Another controversial discussion! (Capitalism vs Communism) - Page 11 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #101 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-02-09, 09:48 AM
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I think in a society which is as equal as possible (free education etc) capitalism is the best; it promotes competition and rewards those who work the hardest/think the clearest! ...
I'd say that's clearly not true. As I said earlier, the easist way to be rich in capitalism is to be born rich. that's not about choice, is it? If it is, hurrah, I chose to have been born rich. 'scuse me, gotta go, a truck-load of money just pulled up outside.

It's a dream, that's all. You get rich in capitalism by exploiting the work of other people, not by working hard yoursdelf, otherwise Filipino housemaids would rule the world.

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...not only that but it fits in with the selfish nature of humanity (a bit pesimistic but true!) ...
Says you. Even (and I don't think it's true) if humans have to be selfish, it seems to me self-evident that a system that minimises that rather than encourages it would be better.

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...Everyone (to an extent) has equal opportunities and in a society which isnt purely capitalist, those who are unable to work/fend for themselves are supported by the welfare state...
I presume you're talking about Britain here? Britain is 'purely capitalist'. The Welfare State was originally recommended by the Tories and big business in the 1920s because it was thought it would be cheaper for Britiah capitalism.

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... As has been said countless times Communism is a fantastic idea but human nature makes a purely communist society impossible.
And as has been said countless times, that's religion; whereas the actual existence of communist societies - primitive communism to be sure, but societies without private property and classes - is both historically attested and suspected for approximately 97% of humanitiy's existence; so, it's not true that communism is impossible.

It may be impossible to realise developed communism; but not because of arguments that it 'conflicts with human nature'. It doesn't wash.

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post #102 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-03-09, 09:27 AM
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Not quite the same thing, but as you've brought up natural selection, here goes. There's a species of bird, I think in New Guinea (but ornothological geography isn't my field) that has three sexes. Actually, it's only got two sexes, but males come in 2 distinct types, big black ones and small red ones. Both breed with the same females.

Big black males have territories, they do mating dances and fight with each other - I'll call this behaviour 'competitive'. Their mating dances attract females to the area. If there are few other competitive males about, they have sex with the females, thus passing on big black territorial dancing DNA. If there are other competitive males about they fight the other males.

Meanwhile the small red males, who don't mark territories, don't do mating dances and don't fight the competitive males hang around for a fight to develop, at which point they have sex with the females who've been called to a shagfest but instead get to watch to males having a punch-up. Let's call this 'opportunistic' behaviour. It ensures that there are females that are fertilised by sneaky little red-feathered non-dancing DNA.

Now, a 'stronger is better' view of natural selection says "the competitive males are stronger, there are/will be no opportunistic males". But 'survival of the fittest' doesn't mean 'survival of the strongest' or 'survival of the most violent'. 'Fittest' means 'most fitting' - survival of 'what is right', what is 'best adapted'. The small red males have developed a strategy to exploit a particular environment. And it works.

Now going back to hominds and early humans, we can apply the same insights to see that heirarchy may not have been the best surviaval strategy.It may well be that co-operation was a more important survival skill than competition or heirarchy, as Kropotkin (famous Russian Anarchist, but before that geographer and ethnographer for the Russian Government) concluded from his studies in Siberia in the 1800s.

But, after all that, Stalin was a nasty man...
Oh knickers you've dragged me back in

I deliberately talked about biological fitness which is talk specifically linked to strength. Although it is in many species such as Red Deer.

However fitness, in biological terms, is measured entirely on the ability to pass on genetic material. That could be that a male of whatever species could be more yellow, more large, have pinker ears, have smaller claws or in fact anything that makes it more likely to breed. In your example the little red fella is as fit as the big black lad. The example isn't directly transferable to humans though.

Your argument on the validity of our hypotheses doesn't sway me yet either. Your use of semantics and language is very impressive but not anything you haven't already told us. Neither of our hypotheses can be proven or disproven realistically. Even if we found one 10000 year old grave with a crown in it, it wouldn't prove that there was no such thing as primitive communism. In a paleolithic society where people didn't own anything that didn't rot how can we tell anything from the pathetic array of burial sites we have. When your position in the heirarchy could be demonstrated by getting a larger share of food or the villages only bearskin what would be left for us to examine?

If we accept that we can't prove either hypothesis beyond reasonable doubt archaeologically then I believe we are left with 6000 years of clear evidence that the human species will naturally fall into a heirarchical society. That is after all the natural way of many natural species.

I claim no great understanding of comtemporary politics but I firmly believe that there is no evidence for any primitive communism and little chance of it breaking out in the future.

You're right though Stalin was a very nasty man.
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post #103 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-03-09, 05:59 PM
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I think capitilism is way better, I know its hard to go to collage if your from a poor family ( most people are in the middle class ) but if you just stay at home for 2 years and work at mcdonalds, and ( within 2 years ) youll have enough to go to a comunity collage, I dont like the Idea of comunism because everyone is making a dollar an hour ( of course your house is paid for but 1 dollar an hour would make me go crazy ) I like the idea of working harder advancing and making more money it rewards the workers and punishes the lasy and ignorant. Dont give me poor single mother crap because it was her choice whether to go to collage or not, and when to have kids.
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post #104 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-04-09, 04:48 AM
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I think capitilism is way better, I know its hard to go to collage if your from a poor family ( most people are in the middle class ) but if you just stay at home for 2 years and work at mcdonalds, and ( within 2 years ) youll have enough to go to a comunity collage, I dont like the Idea of comunism because everyone is making a dollar an hour ( of course your house is paid for but 1 dollar an hour would make me go crazy ) I like the idea of working harder advancing and making more money it rewards the workers and punishes the lasy and ignorant. Dont give me poor single mother crap because it was her choice whether to go to collage or not, and when to have kids.
I think Red Orc has said it enough times that I'll step in for him here. That isn't communism. In communism there is no money. Everyones needs are met and stating that everyone makes one dollar an hour is incredibly skewed, even if one were to consider the very basics of needs such as food, shelter, education, healthcare ect.

I always find it incredible when people say they don't care about their fellow human beings. However I find it much more astonishing when they say that everyone has a fair shake. The way things are set up now isn't as straight forward as the trite 'work and your advancement will come along' bullcrap that so many spout.

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post #105 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-05-09, 03:45 AM
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actually I said that everything was paid for, except they actually ( in some countries ) get an additional pay, the only people that think that if yoy work hard you dont get anywhere have already given up on their poor lifes and want things easy, capitalism allows the smarter of us to lead our countries to better places, I dont like the idea of a dictatorship with generals with IQs of 65 leading a country where I have no oppertunities, instead of some ( although I belive that we have a lot, maybe Im really optomistic ) oppertunities!
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post #106 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 02:42 AM
 
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Captialism = evil.

The problem with Communism is that no one wants to follow Marx's true theories, but instead they invent shit like "leninist marxism" and Maoist Marxism" to suit their own needs. And usually the problem is that they want to have transition straight away instead of gradually working toward a democratic socialist system. Hence it usually just turns from stealing the power from evil bastard and giving the power into other people who are corrupted by the power.

I think communism is unfairly demonised because the West always uses China and Russia as examples. But all those Latin American socialist nations killed by CIA sponsored dictators like Pinochet and Trujillo never gets mentioned!!!

Anyway, BIG UPS TO HUGO CHAVEZ!!!!! #$%@ America!!!!
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post #107 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 05:20 AM
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#$%@ America!!!!

What a fucked up thing to say. You do realize that there are Americans on this board, right?

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post #108 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 05:38 AM
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@ wu-tang. Aside from rudely insulting many Americans, you just gave "ups" to a dictator who sponsors terrorism and refuses to let human rights groups in his country to help his people. Not to mention, free speech is unheard of down there. Way to go.
@ Wraithian. Amen brother!

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post #109 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 06:07 AM
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Wow... there are so many things wrong with that statement, I don't even know where to begin. I hate to dignify anything with a response, because I'm really convinced that saying "f*ck America, go Hugo Chavez!" is one of those statements made by someone who just wants to be part of an anti-establishment "fight the man" counterculture kind of thing-- Communist because popular opinion dislikes it, for example. All the same...

You do realize that even Marx thought communism couldn't work because people are naturally competitive and the strong ultimately seize power, right? It's great on paper, but it doesn't work due to human nature. Lenin and Mao both used Marx's writings as a way to inspire people to back their government-- nothing more.

Abstractly, capitalism is kind of evil. At its core, the rich prosper because they essentially steal the rewards of their employees' efforts. But it works well enough, and that's all you can ask for at the end of the day. Ultimately, you want a balance between the two-- and I think Western Europe has done pretty well with that. The United States is too generally conservative to ever go that direction. I wouldn't go so far as to say f*ck the United States, though.

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post #110 of 144 (permalink) Old 04-15-09, 06:18 AM
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#$%@ America!!!!
I'm not even going to list all the reasons the free world exists in any form because of America. And it does.

That comment was extremely offensive, my friend. Just a little thing to bear in mind whenever you post on this section in the future; there are lots of people on this board from many different counties, and none of us take kindly to that kind of insult.

Also: He's just trolling yall., take it easy.


Last edited by Captain Galus; 04-15-09 at 06:29 AM. Reason: teh grammarz
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