socialism is bad because.... - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
Off Topic Totally off-topic chat in here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-30-08, 09:04 PM
Ex Mod.
 
cccp's Avatar
cccp's Flag is: Great Britain
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 4,245
Reputation: 1
Default

but really, why should the rich pay less tax when there are no government controls stopping the poor from starving?
cccp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-30-08, 09:12 PM
Senior Member
 
Son of mortarion's Avatar
Son of mortarion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Running a dark mechanicus forgeworld somewhere in the warp
Posts: 2,069
Reputation: 1
Default

why should they have to pay more? to say that the rich need to pay more in taxes is not far from saying that the poor deserve the money that the rich have. the rich should simply be required to pay all of their burden, not have it increased.

check out the entropic reaper or remain a vagrant on the sidewalk of life.
[http://entropomancer.blogspot.com/
Son of mortarion is offline  
post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-30-08, 09:25 PM
Ex Mod.
 
cccp's Avatar
cccp's Flag is: Great Britain
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 4,245
Reputation: 1
Default

surely some of it boils down to a moral duty, if you have more money that you could ever spend, and there is a family starving in their house through no fault of their own, it would be the right thing to do to give them some money. the only dfference here is that it is taken from you by the government and given to them that way. obviously, there are limits on how much can be redistributed and how much you pay.
cccp is offline  
post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-30-08, 10:47 PM
Senior Member
 
EndangeredHuman's Avatar
EndangeredHuman's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Swindon, UK
Posts: 517
Reputation: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of mortarion View Post
all this nifty stuff costs money, socialism pays for it by taxing people. The reason ABBA left Sweden was the tax rate, which made them unable to make a living after paying the bills for doing a show and dividing the rest between the band members.
Socialism does promote mediocrity by discouraging excellence. Why would anyone work to make more money, if it was just going to be taken away so some lazy jerk could collect it. As for less poverty and socialills. Bull the primary effect is to make everyone poor, and new social ills would crop up. "My dispensation check isn't big enough" or the inequality of laboring for the same pay as the guy that works on a computer all day in an air-conditioned office.
Having a single country as a socialist state wouldn't work, as you've just proved by ABBA. If socialism was a general theme for goverments worldwide it would be a more valid system. You're talking about material excellence, which is needed by a capitalist state. How much money do psychology researchers get for writing papers about how schizophrenia affects the human mind? Not alot. Why would they do it for the money if there is no monetry gain? Why do people club together into sporting teams and strive to become the best in their town? For money? What money? People would simply find other means of asserting their intelligence. Capital gain is simply one excuse. A doctor in a hopital doesn't always work for money, do they? They simply need money to live, they want to spend their time saving lives.

You're forgetting that not everyone who requires money in a socialist state is a 'lazy jerk'. Do the people currently taking goverment aid because there is no work in their area lazy? Does somebody who can't work not deserve to live because they can't 'pull their weight for the greater good of capitalism'? Some people are lazy, some are genuinly downtrodden. Please remember that before making such a comment.

Yes, of coruse there will be different social ills, but the ones we have currently would disapate to some degree. If the balance came out for the better or worse, nobody can know.

People will always be bothered by somebody else living in 'better' conditions than they are. Be it money, enviroment, or whatever problem. This is not an ill of socialism, it is an ill of every form of goverment ever to exist, so the point is irrelevent. The only time this will be overridden is when people can choose their job and take and recieve pride for the job they do.

1500pts Celestial Lions
1000pts Warboss Judge Skull'Umper
500pts Vostroyan & Cadian 119th
EndangeredHuman is offline  
post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-30-08, 11:10 PM
Senior Member
 
Red Orc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,615
Reputation: 1
Default

If by "Socialism" you mean "electing a social-democratic government" then it certainly can lead to fascism. Look at Chile. Allende was elected on social-democratic ticket, the CIA and the Chilean military overthrew his governmet, 3,000 plus people were murdered by the fascists. Same thing happened in Spain in 1936; republican government overthrown by the army backed by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, leading to Franco's dictatorship. Fascist? It's a point one can quibble over. Authoritarian capitalist military dictatorship? Certainly.

On the other hand, I think Allende was a scumbag and a crook. I'm not glad he was murdered, and I'm certainly not glad thousands of others were murdered by the US and its fascist allies, but it wasn't all nice before Pinochet took over.

It doesn't lead to communism though, communism can only be brought about by a revolution. History has repeatedly demonstrated since 1870 that communism (or socialism) cannot be elected into power. "Socialist governments" are capitalist governments, because "socialist government" cannot exist. Socialism, as the end of states and classes, can only be brought about worldwide, without governments, countries or any other that unneccessary crap that retards the progress of the human race.

Even when communists have come to power, a capitalist dictatorship has rapidly re-asserted itself, such as Russia. Communism in one country is a nonsense - this is just "National Socialism" ie not socialism at all, it's national or state capitalism.

Communism and capitalism cannot exist at the same time. Communism (or socialism) can only exist once capitalism has been abolished. The disagreement between "communists" and "socialists" is effectively one of tactics; communists believe in the necessity of revolution, socialists belive that it is possible to conquer capitalism by seizing state power through elections. Both (claim to) seek to bring about a classless communal society.

And I'd like to say, the poor do deserve the money the rich have, as the rich made their money by ripping off the poor. Wealth distribution is a zero-sum game. One person has a lot because very many have nothing.

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"


Red Orc is offline  
post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-31-08, 02:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Son of mortarion's Avatar
Son of mortarion's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Running a dark mechanicus forgeworld somewhere in the warp
Posts: 2,069
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Orc View Post
And I'd like to say, the poor do deserve the money the rich have, as the rich made their money by ripping off the poor. Wealth distribution is a zero-sum game. One person has a lot because very many have nothing.

Really? do yu really understand economics, because that isn't how it works. you are also advocating stealing from someone since they have more. Just because the theft is government-sanctioned, it still isn't right.


No the rich have no moral obligation to give the poor their money, that is precisely why society sees it a a respectable action. they have no obligation to do so, but do so anyways,

it is lazy to look to others for your money, even if it is ethically lazy to do so. very few people are truly unable to provide for themselves in the developed world, most simply do not want to do what is necessary.

check out the entropic reaper or remain a vagrant on the sidewalk of life.
[http://entropomancer.blogspot.com/
Son of mortarion is offline  
post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 10-31-08, 10:04 AM
Senior Member
 
Red Orc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,615
Reputation: 1
Default

I agree, state sanctioned theft is not right, and that's exactly what the deriving of profit is.

Workers, through their work, make wealth. Bosses, through their (state-sanctioned) ownership of the means of production, take that wealth and return... oooh, lest say 10% to the workers. The other 90% is therefore stolen. The fact that the state says it's OK doesn't make a blind bit of difference.

But it does mean it's OUR money not THEIRS.

This is why co-operatives (companies where all workers take part in management and ownership, in other words workers without bosses) can work, but no-one ever set up a company composed of all bosses and no workers. Workers create wealth, bosses steal it, it's that simple. It's called "extraction of surplus value".

As Proudhoun said: "Property is theft". This is why we need to destroy capitalism and the state at the time.

Yes, I understand how economics works. Do you?

"Well it's Forty-one Thousand Nine Hundred Sixty-nine OK -
Gotta war across the Milky Way - "
Iggius Popiscus and the Stoogii, "41,969"



Last edited by Red Orc; 10-31-08 at 12:58 PM.
Red Orc is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > HO Off Topic > Off Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome