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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-15, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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The middle east needs dictators anything less is going to lead to this.
I am inclined to agree with this sentiment. Democracy just isn't compatible with some races. It always seem to go the shit when they remove one in that region. Imagine the mayhem if the Saudi royal family were overthrown tomorrow.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-15, 08:45 PM
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If I were in character I would shout 'blood for the blood god' and make jokes about the situation. But as trolly as I can be, this really isn't something to be joked about.
But to reiterate what people have said already is 'fuck these guys'.
As tempting as it may be to take the 'Murikan route and indescriminately bomb some muslims, I have a feeling that it will achieve little other than make things worse.

The French are good at just getting on with it and showing that they wont be made to cower like dogs. I hope they do the same again and show that they wont be phased by such wretches.

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Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
I am inclined to agree with this sentiment. Democracy just isn't compatible with some races. It always seem to go the shit when they remove one in that region. Imagine the mayhem if the Saudi royal family were overthrown tomorrow.
I agree. We should just stay out of the middle east. We've never achieved anything positive there in the hundreds of years that we've been interferring.
They have their own system of doing things and that seems to work for them. When we try and impose our western ideologies on them, it just causes a clusterfug.
The sooner we can get outselves away from fossil fuels the sooner we can stop screwing around there.

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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-15-15, 10:13 PM
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Even if we weren't involved in the Middle east, these Donkey Caves would still be around.
Their minds are weak, and easily filled with nonsense, and combined with the testosterone of young men, they avenge themselves in the only way they can, upon the defenceless.
They will be beaten, eventually, but there will be more horror first. At the moment they don't understand that all they create is hatred, a re-doubled resolve and disgust. An abhorrence of their ideals, and an overwhelming desire to eradicate them.
They can try and destroy "The West", but unfortunately for them, if they do it one person at a time, it will take until the end of the baryonic universe to achieve their aims. There are far fewer of them, and every day, thanks to the combined efforts of every civilised nation on earth through arrest, diplomacy and direct violent military action, there are fewer of them.
Fuck them, and their ideology. I sincerely hope that we now re-double our efforts in Syria and destroy everything that they are trying to build.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 05:13 AM
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Even if we weren't involved in the Middle east, these Donkey Caves would still be around.
Their minds are weak, and easily filled with nonsense, and combined with the testosterone of young men, they avenge themselves in the only way they can, upon the defenceless.
They will be beaten, eventually, but there will be more horror first. At the moment they don't understand that all they create is hatred, a re-doubled resolve and disgust. An abhorrence of their ideals, and an overwhelming desire to eradicate them.
They can try and destroy "The West", but unfortunately for them, if they do it one person at a time, it will take until the end of the baryonic universe to achieve their aims. There are far fewer of them, and every day, thanks to the combined efforts of every civilised nation on earth through arrest, diplomacy and direct violent military action, there are fewer of them.
Fuck them, and their ideology. I sincerely hope that we now re-double our efforts in Syria and destroy everything that they are trying to build.

The problem is that with every hospital or innocent village the US and its allies accidently drone strike into oblivion, we create more people who hate the West. We certainly don't make it easier by jumping in there like Rambo, killing everyone and then asking if they were ISIS after they're dead.
This is not a problem we can solve by blowing up people.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kharn The Complainer View Post
This is not a problem we can solve by blowing up people.
I am sure if we blow up enough, like say, all of them, the problem would dry up. The thing a lot of people are up in arms over is that some of these guys are getting into western countries posing as refugees. Of course the obvious solution is to just not allow any refugees in. That eases the burden on the west but then there are bleeding hearts who cry out on behalf of the true refugees, as well as international humanitarian laws I believe, which softens the government and the problem remains.

They try to sow fear among us, and instead they create defiance and ridicule of their ways. Every attempt they make to break us is only hardening us to their ways. I remember 9/11 and the devastation it brought in the decade that followed, and even now. The clusterfuck of attacks that have happened since.

When the west finally breaks, it won't be our resolve that shatters. It will be our patience.


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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kharn The Complainer View Post
The problem is that with every hospital or innocent village the US and its allies accidently drone strike into oblivion, we create more people who hate the West. We certainly don't make it easier by jumping in there like Rambo, killing everyone and then asking if they were ISIS after they're dead.
This is not a problem we can solve by blowing up people.
I'm sorry if I sound angrier than I actually am, but this assumption that the west is regularly destroying schools and hospitals, and attacking civilians with drones is an utter fallacy, and a dangerous one. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever between ordinance deployed by drone, or by man piloted aircraft.
The same rules of engagement are used and strictly adhered to. ISIS want everyone to believe that this sort of thing happens all the time, but believe me, it absolutely does not. A lot of their footage is very old, from far removed conflicts before drones were even used, if it isn't actually filmed footage of the results of their own, or their allies attacks on "enemy" villages, that they blame on the West.

What is the alternative, however? To not engage the enemy? To back off in fear of doing more harm? People bang on about learning from history, as if Iraq is some sort of trump card, but what happens if you don't engage? Or leave it until your enemy has consolidated and mobilised and is smashing through central Europe.

Something has to be done, and it will be done on many levels, not just militarily. But violent direct action will still be a part of that resolution, because at this stage it must be. We must engage and destroy their leadership, training facilities and infrastructure. Other methods will be deployed at the same time, politics, diplomacy, economics and education. It's not one solution.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 08:20 AM
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Wow, because that doesn't make the West sound like an abusive parent. "If you try my patience I'm going to beat on you." Come off it.

Your solution of just bombing the place to shit has the colossal problem that this isn't a video game. There isn't some patch of Iraq where when you walk in it's all ISIS and everyone agros to you. There are innocent civilians who just want to live in peace and your solution is to obliterate them for nothing more than existing near some people who tried the West's patience? Is that because their lives are less valuable than ours, or does it being half a world away make it less of a genocide?

How about instead of bombing civilians to dust, we stop fucking selling arms to countries like Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia with atrocious records of human rights violations and who actively sponsor ISIS and the like? While we're at it, why doesn't the West stop raising up dictators just so they can get more favourable oil prices and then bombing those regimes when they don't play ball anymore.

By and large the West's involvement has been selfish, rash, ill-advised and heavy-handed, more often than not leading to more problems that it solved. I agree with Khârn, this is not a problem we can solve by blowing people up.

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And for two fucking grand, I could buy enough rum and hookers to 'artistically' recreate the better part of Pirates of the Caribbean.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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I agree with Khârn, this is not a problem we can solve by blowing people up.
Unfortunately, whatever the historic causes of the mess the Middle East has turned into, blowing these people up will have to be part of whatever solution we come up with. It'll never work on it's own, but the roots of this current problem lie at the heart of the ISIS stronghold, and until that's eradicated, there's no way any other solution can work. These are not the sort of people who will just go away if you ignore them.

It's either extremely naive, deluded, or both, to believe otherwise.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 09:59 AM
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I'm guessing that, as we posted simultaneously, you were talking to serpion.

Unfortunately, global politics is very dirty. It is impossible to do as you say, and not get involved, because we are all complicit in the actions of our nation. They act in order to preserve our way of life, and to do that, you have to make deals with people, some of which are very very unpleasant. It's a fact of life and utterly unavoidable. The difference is that now, we are much more aware of that fact, and the implications.
The middle east, especially is difficult, and we were involved over there before oil was an issue. For example, most of the boundaries in the area, especially Israel, we're created by the British. Not down to Empire building, but after the defeat of the ottoman empire who were allied to the Germans in the first world war, the British and french were handed the job of sorting out parts of the newly fractured empire and administering it. Have a look at partitioning the ottoman empire 1918-1922 for more details.
That has contributed to the ongoing tensions in the area, mostly due to quite heinous mistakes made by all parties.
Double unfortunately is the fact that the whole region is soaked in oil. Without this one resource, modern life as we know it would cease to function altogether. Not just for fuel, but also for manufacturing plastics, the West simply could not function without it. Therefore, with that in mind, it is not surprising that conflict will arise over this. There seems to be a misconception that the conflicts are some how dirtier because it's only about oil. Oil is as important and critical a reason as any other for a nation to employ considerable resources to secure its continued supply. When we deploy overseas to protect oil interests, we do so to directly protect the nation's we live in, it's as good a reason as any.

Sorry for the rant, but it is a subject that I feel strongly about.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-15, 03:08 PM
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You are right I was talking to Serpion, but equally it's a public forum so it's not like it was just addressed to him.

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... and to do that, you have to make deals with people, some of which are very very unpleasant. It's a fact of life and utterly unavoidable...
This I cannot partner with. Perhaps to maintain the status quo there is no way of avoiding doing these kinds of deals, but I cannot believe that there is no way to live a life-style that is similar to what we have now and stand against injustices. Hell, even if we regressed slightly, it wouldn't be the worst thing.

My point is not that oil isn't important, but as important as other people? No way. If we cannot have the technological advancements we have now without subjecting whole countries to abject poverty and war then we don't deserve them. If the price of plastics and cars is war and devastation then the price is too damn fucking high.

You may well be right that, now we have an army against us, the only thing we can do is fight back. The problem is that is all anyone seems to want. We'll drop a few bombs, parade a few bodies around to show how superior we are and then continue to sponsor abhorrent regimes blissfully unaware (or perhaps shamefully aware) that we're just making these problems worse. Maybe we have to fight this army, but we also have to stop the endless process of creating enemies like this for us to fight. And that won't be solved by bombs.

Yes, perhaps I am one of those 'bleeding hearts' but I can't agree that his is as good as it gets and nothing can be done about it.

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My growing IIIrd legion stuff:

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Crusade Army List tactica - Individual Legion tactica

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And for two fucking grand, I could buy enough rum and hookers to 'artistically' recreate the better part of Pirates of the Caribbean.
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