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post #111 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 04:49 PM
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Well then where does dark energy come from? Why is it there? etc etc etc

Some people, myself included, can believe that the theory of God and the proof of evolution etc. can coexist. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

The problem with a lot of internet atheists (not you guys--pretty much nobody here is a raging asshole who thinks all religious folk are retards and don't deserve their attention--I'm talking about the general population on r/atheism) think that everything has to be black and white.

Evolution? Big Bang? THERE IS NO GOD, YOU'RE ALL IDIOTS, WE'VE ALREADY PROVEN THAT THERE IS NO GOD--that's the point I'm trying to argue against. Just like ideas evolved over time way back when with some new guy's interpretation of the bible, so too do ideas change to adapt(?) to new ideas, even if that adaptation is little more than "God made it happen", at least the people who go with that train of thought aren't completely ignorant. Religion != closing your eyes to advances in knowledge (necessarily), the only absolute is a belief in a deity.

Regarding the blanket generalization above, I meant it more towards acts like the crusades, 9/11 etc, because people debating religion tend to bring that up as the catch-all proof that religion is a terrible, terrible thing and atheism is the way to go. Protip: never argue religion on Facebook

But yes, blanket generalizations are generally a bad thing.



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Originally Posted by Tha Tall One View Post
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The logic does not flow both ways here. Your description of what I presume is your version of the Big Bang Theory, is not really what happened now. I'd be happy to explain you more if you wish, but not in this thread. Please don't take this the wrong way, but scientists come up with evidence for one worldview, while the religious say "Well our evidence is in this <2000 year old book, but please do not take heed of the parts about stoning gays or people wearing mixed cloth, those are wrong."
I am not trying to change your worldview or 'convert' you, but I don't think you fully understand or know all the arguments the other side makes. Which is the case for a lot of people, even atheists.
However, as I am no theologian, feel free to correct my views of your side.
Well that's where the ignorant members of religious groups come in. As I explained above, not every single member of every single religion is evolution-bashing and science-hating.

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post #112 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 04:59 PM
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Not sure if you're being sarcastic when you call me a raging dickhead

We do get our religion from our holy books and churches, and I can admit that we're just as bad as the douchy religious people when it comes to picking and choosing what we believe in, but we (as in, the progressive-religious) try to focus on the good things, like be good to one another, love thy neighbour, etc.

As to "why not do this without religion", well we do all of the above in addition to believing in our mystic man in the sky, heaven, hell, et cetera. We're of the "God loves all his children" belief.
Oh, yeah everything insulting was sarcasm I can definitely respect that, though I still think you're deluding yourself

I don't know though. Part of me wants to let all the decent but still religious people have their mythical sky gandalf, but part of me wants to just rail against the evils perpetrated by much, if not most, of religion. I found this video very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn0tPRjVBvw

And yes, I do understand that Catholicism is not the only religion It's just what I'm used to.

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post #113 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 09:28 PM
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If Religion is malleable, and can change to socio-economic changes, what makes it worth following? If it essentially changes to match 'what people think' and social pressures, and is apparently quoted from someone who heard the word of their God, why do you believe in that god?



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
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post #114 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 11:33 PM
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Because ultimately we believe in the same God as the people did before, we just interpret his teachings differently.

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post #115 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 08:09 AM
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Because ultimately we believe in the same God as the people did before, we just interpret his teachings differently.
No, you do not. The Christian god, much like the Judaic one before him, was a cruel tyrant who demanded total obedience and submission. Modern "christians" (meaning folks like you who call themselves christian but don't get into the deep end) are not worshipping the same god, else you'd be as big a bunch of cunts as the more devout fucks who are.

What you are claiming to believe in is a god of modern invention, one who no longer seems to endorse slavery or ownership of women via marriage, or the genocide of non believers and harsh penalties for stupid harmless shit. No, this modern idea of god exists simply because you find it easier to have faith than to look for real answers or to accept that we simply do not know yet.

We never hear anyone mention faith about something when there is evidence. We don't have faith in the sun, we can see that it's right there. We don't have faith in the ground beneath us, we can feel it under our feet. Nor do we have faith that dinosaurs and other ancient animals walked the earth long before us, we have fossil evidence. Faith only comes into it when dealing with a lack of evidence. Faith is not an answer, it is an escape from looking for an answer. That's the difference between us. While you use faith to fill the gap in your knowledge and your understanding, I am happy to leave that gap empty until a real answer can be found.

The day you stop looking for the truth, the day you give up and fill in the blanks with faith, is the day your mind starts to close. The more you rely on faith, the more you start to believe the easy answers. It's better to have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.

Faith and belief, and religion in general only really serves one purpose in cases like yours, James. It simply provides a catalyst for you to believe whatever suits you. Whether it's because of a lack of real knowledge that you can't accept, a fear of death and mortality, or just some tradition you accepted from your parents without ever questioning. Whatever the reason, in most cases I've talked to people like you, ultimately you have no desire to change what you believe.

And that's kind of disappointing.


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post #116 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 09:54 AM
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Thats definitely not always the case. Take your hot stove example, while there are some people thick enough who they'd have to burn themselves before they understood they are the exception and not the rule. (I'd like to assume no one here would have to find out a hot stove is hot by touching it anyway.)
Guilty.



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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post #117 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
No, you do not. The Christian god, much like the Judaic one before him, was a cruel tyrant who demanded total obedience and submission. Modern "christians" (meaning folks like you who call themselves christian but don't get into the deep end) are not worshipping the same god, else you'd be as big a bunch of cunts as the more devout fucks who are.

What you are claiming to believe in is a god of modern invention, one who no longer seems to endorse slavery or ownership of women via marriage, or the genocide of non believers and harsh penalties for stupid harmless shit. No, this modern idea of god exists simply because you find it easier to have faith than to look for real answers or to accept that we simply do not know yet.

We never hear anyone mention faith about something when there is evidence. We don't have faith in the sun, we can see that it's right there. We don't have faith in the ground beneath us, we can feel it under our feet. Nor do we have faith that dinosaurs and other ancient animals walked the earth long before us, we have fossil evidence. Faith only comes into it when dealing with a lack of evidence. Faith is not an answer, it is an escape from looking for an answer. That's the difference between us. While you use faith to fill the gap in your knowledge and your understanding, I am happy to leave that gap empty until a real answer can be found.

The day you stop looking for the truth, the day you give up and fill in the blanks with faith, is the day your mind starts to close. The more you rely on faith, the more you start to believe the easy answers. It's better to have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.

Faith and belief, and religion in general only really serves one purpose in cases like yours, James. It simply provides a catalyst for you to believe whatever suits you. Whether it's because of a lack of real knowledge that you can't accept, a fear of death and mortality, or just some tradition you accepted from your parents without ever questioning. Whatever the reason, in most cases I've talked to people like you, ultimately you have no desire to change what you believe.

And that's kind of disappointing.


In short, just because science doesn't know everything it shouldn't be an invite for people to fill in the blanks with any old bullshit they fancy and claim it ti be true.


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post #118 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 04:44 PM
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Unicorns. A Scientist can say categorically that there has been no Unicorn ever discovered. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but rather that there is no proof it exists as it stands.

"We don't know yet" is pretty much a rallying cry for those to attempt to prove how something occurs, or even why. For example, I think I might have read that scientists are unsure at what causes thunderstorms. They understand the how, but not necessarily the what or why.



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It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
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post #119 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 05:36 PM
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No, you do not. The Christian god, much like the Judaic one before him, was a cruel tyrant who demanded total obedience and submission. Modern "christians" (meaning folks like you who call themselves christian but don't get into the deep end) are not worshipping the same god, else you'd be as big a bunch of cunts as the more devout fucks who are.

What you are claiming to believe in is a god of modern invention, one who no longer seems to endorse slavery or ownership of women via marriage, or the genocide of non believers and harsh penalties for stupid harmless shit. No, this modern idea of god exists simply because you find it easier to have faith than to look for real answers or to accept that we simply do not know yet.

We never hear anyone mention faith about something when there is evidence. We don't have faith in the sun, we can see that it's right there. We don't have faith in the ground beneath us, we can feel it under our feet. Nor do we have faith that dinosaurs and other ancient animals walked the earth long before us, we have fossil evidence. Faith only comes into it when dealing with a lack of evidence. Faith is not an answer, it is an escape from looking for an answer. That's the difference between us. While you use faith to fill the gap in your knowledge and your understanding, I am happy to leave that gap empty until a real answer can be found.

The day you stop looking for the truth, the day you give up and fill in the blanks with faith, is the day your mind starts to close. The more you rely on faith, the more you start to believe the easy answers. It's better to have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.

Faith and belief, and religion in general only really serves one purpose in cases like yours, James. It simply provides a catalyst for you to believe whatever suits you. Whether it's because of a lack of real knowledge that you can't accept, a fear of death and mortality, or just some tradition you accepted from your parents without ever questioning. Whatever the reason, in most cases I've talked to people like you, ultimately you have no desire to change what you believe.

And that's kind of disappointing.

Well then I give up. I guess it's impossible for me to both believe that science and religion can coexist, because religion == closing your mind to the truth. It's impossible to both believe in a Christian god and believe in equality for all men. I guess we just stare at an endless blank void when we die, because there is no heaven or hell, and to believe in either of those requires you to not believe in science. Progressive religion is a lie, because ultimately you still believe in a god who, according to people several thousand years ago, is a tyrannical piece of shit. I suppose I'm just as close minded as the homophibic, pro-life, anti-Islam republicans who think that everyone who thinks even remotely differently is going straight to hell for not believing in several-thousand-year-old ideals, and the idea of ideals changing to suit common sense and new information is outright absurd and simply cannot happen.

I'm glad I understand my religion now. Thanks guys. If you'll excuse me, I have to go protest at soldiers' funerals, call up my best friend to tell her she's a faggot and deserves everything bad that has happened and will happen to her simply because she was born a different way, and generally completely reverse my entire way of thinking, because that's what Christians do, and if they don't do things like that, they're not Christians.

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post #120 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-21-14, 07:00 PM
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And that hyperbole is exactly why you can't have a reasoned discussion with religious types, and despite it being hyperbole, it is actually a lot closer to your attitude by closing down so quickly when someone questions your beliefs.

Your opinion and belief is that you believe in god. Fair enough. But why does your belief in things require the belief of harry harry in the sky, harry potter way up high?

Your progressive religion is not the belief in the 'god' that spawned christianity, it is the belief of a god that has changed to adapt to economic and social trends, which is utterly different from the 'god' of 2000 years ago, or the 1400s or whenever the St James Bible was written.

If the original beliefs of god came from his chosen prophets, and their chosen disciples, who are you to 'progress' the belief of a deity who has already codified his belief.

Put ot another way.

A gay person lays down their beliefs. A homophobe comes up to them and says 'your wrong, this is why'. Regardless of how true it is (ie the 'unnaturalness of only spooge from man and egg from lass makes a baby) the gay goes 'so what?'

The homophobe says 'or ill punch you'.

The gay either doesn't want to get punched, so says 'okay, you are right, i am straight', and then changes their ways, or practises their gayness in secret. Alternatively, they say 'fuck you' and continue.

In this allegory, gay is the religion, and homophobe is modern social morals. If religion wanted to be true to itself, and willing to stand for it regardless of consequences, it wouldn't change to modern social morals, which is what has happened. This means you either believe in the original, or ypu believe in something that has been adapted so it doesn't get punched in the face.



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Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
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