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post #101 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 09:02 PM
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Um, yes? Since we currently have catastrophic sectarian war killing and displacing millions of people in the Middle East, endemic corruption and genocidal-levels of disease and poverty in Africa, and other, equally significant problems in India, South America and China, not to mention potential pressure building for war between Russia and America.

If someone omnipotent stepped in and said "Hey, how about I stop all those people from dying?" then you'd have to be inhuman (or just incredibly ignorant and selfish) to say "No".

And why is free will even sacrosanct? What makes it so special?
Let's use a human example.

There are diseases coming back that were abolished decades ago because some people believe a vaccine causes more problems than it fixes. If we force that vaccine on them we're violating their "rights" however if they studied history they would realize that the return of those diseases are far worse than their "little angel" getting autism.

Maybe the only way they'll learn is when their "little angel" becomes patient zero for whatever abolished disease returns.

You can tell a man that a stove is hot a thousand times, however he won't understand the lesson till he burns himself.
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post #102 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 10:12 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't see what that example has to do with the debate at hand apart from giving another reason why we would all be better off if an omnipotent deity prevented us from making damn stupid decisions. After all, since it's all powerful, any god would have no problem controlling every single member of the human race to prevent us from hurting each other.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #103 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 12:50 AM
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I'm sorry, I don't see what that example has to do with the debate at hand apart from giving another reason why we would all be better off if an omnipotent deity prevented us from making damn stupid decisions. After all, since it's all powerful, any god would have no problem controlling every single member of the human race to prevent us from hurting each other.
Forcing things on people only leaves them with reason to complain, it's better to prove without a shadow of doubt that this is the best course of action.
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post #104 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 02:10 AM
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Thats definitely not always the case. Take your hot stove example, while there are some people thick enough who they'd have to burn themselves before they understood they are the exception and not the rule. (I'd like to assume no one here would have to find out a hot stove is hot by touching it anyway.)

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post #105 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 02:42 AM
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Thats definitely not always the case. Take your hot stove example, while there are some people thick enough who they'd have to burn themselves before they understood they are the exception and not the rule. (I'd like to assume no one here would have to find out a hot stove is hot by touching it anyway.)
So if they're the exception why is history filled with the same mistakes that people should have learned?
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post #106 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 03:00 AM
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Am I the only one who thinks that we've wondered away from the primary topic, bat-shit fuck balls who think they're going to get layed by 72 virgin slutty broads for blowing up large numbers of innocent people along with themselves, and wondered into an entirely pointless discussion?
Any time anything religious comes up in a thread, it will inevitably devolve into a debate on whether or not there is a God.

Personally, I do believe in a God, and I know half of you stopped reading here and are either writing your "you're a fool for believing in a Deity" posts or just walking away muttering "what an ass".

Believe it or not, there is such a thing as progressive religion. Just because the current iteration of the whatever-your-holy-text-is is misogynist, encourages the use of slaves or whatever, doesn't mean we're all going to hell for allowing women to have equal rights, allowing gay marriage or enslaving the "heathens". Numerous times is it stated to love thy neighbour, and not to judge, yada yada yada.

Regarding terrorism, there are extremists in every faction. In ye olden thymes, the church had a fuckload of power and everyone was taught that God's rule according to that day's iteration of the Bible/whatever was absolute and you were worth nothing if you didn't follow that rule.

Just as some of you can't fathom the idea of some "mystic man in the sky" setting everything in motion, religious people can't fathom things just deciding to come together, explode and create shit. The logic flows both ways.

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post #107 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 03:42 AM
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Any time anything religious comes up in a thread, it will inevitably devolve into a debate on whether or not there is a God.

Personally, I do believe in a God,
Aww you fucking idiot. How dare you defame our wonderful earth with your nonsense. What an ass...

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and I know half of you stopped reading here and are either writing your "you're a fool for believing in a Deity" posts or just walking away muttering "what an ass".
Awkward.

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Believe it or not, there is such a thing as progressive religion. Just because the current iteration of the whatever-your-holy-text-is is misogynist, encourages the use of slaves or whatever, doesn't mean we're all going to hell for allowing women to have equal rights, allowing gay marriage or enslaving the "heathens". Numerous times is it stated to love thy neighbour, and not to judge, yada yada yada.
Well, I'm not sure who was arguing against that, but my problem with this sort of thing is 1) where, then, do you get your religion (if not from your holy books) and 2) why not just have those things without religion? I am, of course, very happy that you are a "progressive" religious theist rather than a more traditional one, but I still fail to see the logic.

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Regarding terrorism, there are extremists in every faction. In ye olden thymes, the church had a fuckload of power and everyone was taught that God's rule according to that day's iteration of the Bible/whatever was absolute and you were worth nothing if you didn't follow that rule.
Eh. Fair enough. Though there are surprisingly few Atheist Extremists, since we're godless heathens with no morals and all.

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Just as some of you can't fathom the idea of some "mystic man in the sky" setting everything in motion, religious people can't fathom things just deciding to come together, explode and create shit. The logic flows both ways.
Well, not really, but oh well. I'm just happy you're not a raging dickhead

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post #108 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 04:02 AM
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Not sure if you're being sarcastic when you call me a raging dickhead

We do get our religion from our holy books and churches, and I can admit that we're just as bad as the douchy religious people when it comes to picking and choosing what we believe in, but we (as in, the progressive-religious) try to focus on the good things, like be good to one another, love thy neighbour, etc.

As to "why not do this without religion", well we do all of the above in addition to believing in our mystic man in the sky, heaven, hell, et cetera. We're of the "God loves all his children" belief.

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post #109 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 08:25 AM
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Just as some of you can't fathom the idea of some "mystic man in the sky" setting everything in motion, religious people can't fathom things just deciding to come together, explode and create shit. The logic flows both ways.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. The logic does not flow both ways here. Your description of what I presume is your version of the Big Bang Theory, is not really what happened now. I'd be happy to explain you more if you wish, but not in this thread. Please don't take this the wrong way, but scientists come up with evidence for one worldview, while the religious say "Well our evidence is in this <2000 year old book, but please do not take heed of the parts about stoning gays or people wearing mixed cloth, those are wrong."
I am not trying to change your worldview or 'convert' you, but I don't think you fully understand or know all the arguments the other side makes. Which is the case for a lot of people, even atheists.
However, as I am no theologian, feel free to correct my views of your side.

Last edited by Tha Tall One; 08-20-14 at 08:27 AM.
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post #110 of 130 (permalink) Old 08-20-14, 08:47 AM
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Regarding terrorism, there are extremists in every faction.
I never seen a Buddhist blow up a van in the name of his beliefs. Nor a satanist for that matter. Don't know of any atheist factions you'd be able to label as terrorist either. Plenty of Christian, Muslim and and even a few Jewish groups over the years though.

Blanket generalizations are not your friend. Do some research. Even a quick google search, before you post something like that.

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Just as some of you can't fathom the idea of some "mystic man in the sky" setting everything in motion, religious people can't fathom things just deciding to come together, explode and create shit. The logic flows both ways.
Or lack thereof. Failure to understand a scientific concept does not make said concept any less valid. There are numerous findings and explanations for things that were mysteries mere decades ago. Answers to questions that once vexed the greatest minds of older generations are now common facts taught in public schools.

If you were to actually look into what astronomers are learning, you'd see just how far we've come in our understanding of the cosmos, and how utterly ridiculous the idea of the christian god has become.

And it's not that much better to borrow the concept of god simply to fill the gap in your understanding. That's basically saying "lol I dunno so god did it" instead of just acknowledging that we don't know yet. Like I said in a post earlier, the biggest thing theists use to argue their point is the idea of nothing turning into something being too hard. What's absurd is that you think throwing god into this equation fixes it, seemingly oblivious to the fact that this god then also has to have come from nothing.

The concept of nothing itself is one that recently has been thrown into question, following the recent(ish) discovery that even empty space can be occupied by dark energy. Which means there may not even be any real "nothing" in the universe at all. That alone rules out the problem of the something from nothing dilemma, making the idea of a god even more irrelevant.


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