Killing a Burglar Murder or Self-Defense? - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 06:16 AM Thread Starter
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Default Killing a Burglar Murder or Self-Defense?

So here is a really wierd, and messed-up, case for you my fellow Heretics; and I am interested to here the public Input on the matter.

So in lovely town of Little Falls, Minnasota an old man of 65 years (Mr. Smith) has had his house broken into mutliple times in recent months. The man, claiming to be fearful of future Robberies, sets up camera's and recording devices and arms himself to the teeth in preparation for a eventual conflict. Needless to say he gets what he asked for and more.

One night two teenagers enter into the House; a White Male and Female. As they do the old man shoots the young lad dead with a shotgun, then proceeds to drag him into a workshop so as to not stain the carpet. After reloading he finds the women and shoots her too; making sure to drop some language as he does. now at this point two teens are dead, circumstantially from Breaking and Entering pruivate property.
I pose to you these questions.
The Courts, however, paint this man in a different story. Mr. Smith was charged with "Premeditated-Murder" on the basis he killed two teens. Supposedly laying in wait to catch and kill the burglarers he apparently is commiting a crime, and shooting them dead was as well. Regardless of self-defense, or the fact that both teens had Police Records, it seems he is a guiltyman for planning to kill people in his own home.

Thus we have a conundrum here people. On the one hand it is undeniable that these teens, with a History, did Trespass onto Private Property; and may have had the motive of wanting to Vandalize/Steal property. It is a fact that Mr. Smith had been robbed, and that he set up Camera's and Recording devices in the hopes of catching these folks to cinvict them, or defend his actions in killing them. As per the "Castle Doctrine" law a resident of Minnosota can use Lethal Force is someone is illegal on their property and using force to "Illegally" enter their home.

However we also know that only the boy seemed to be in the house to steal property. The young girl seemed to have followed her young freind in.We know that Mr. smith didn't just kill them, he took his time to drag them from the scene into his workshop nearbye. He then had enough time to reload and kill the girl, repeating the action in a rather crude manner. Whether either intruders were putting Mr. Smith in a position of Life or Death is debatable at this point.

Thus my fellow Heretics I propose to you these simple questions. If he killed the young boy, why finish off the girl, why not let her live to face for her crimes? Excessive force or murderous actions? Why move the bodies if your defending your home; shouldn't you contact the Police and leave them where they fell?
Additionally, for all their smiling photo's these kids had History, and clearly did not come for a social visit. Is the Media over-playing the "Victim" Card, or do you think Mr. Smith went to far?

Your thoughts and comments.........

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post #2 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 06:20 AM
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I would think that there could have been some room for argument with the male, but killing the female was murder, at least in my opinion. It sounds as though he actively sought her out and killed her. He wasn't in any real danger at that point, so I see no justification for it.

Honestly, the old dude sounds like a cunt of the highest order and should probably be locked up for a very long time.

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post #3 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 07:15 AM
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If you come into the house, you deserve to be shot. But in the girls case (IMO), that's just straight out murder. Also, if you have a crime scene, DON'T TOUCH SHIT! Stupid for dragging the body to his workshop. Leave whatever, wherever it is.
IMO, he should go to jail for the girls death. But the fact that he armed himself to protect his house should not be a factor.
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post #4 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 07:32 AM
nice boy, daft though !
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If he has been broken into multiple times, would his efforts not being better making his home more secure ?
If two teens can break into your home more than once, you need to consider that your home is getting targeted because its easy pickings, if you then wait to shoot the burglars you have committed murder.

I tend to get the impression that alot of Americans believe that home security begins with a weapon rather than stopping people getting into your house, granted if films and tv is to be believed anyone can get into your home with a credit card or hair pin, but maybe rather than guns and ammo people should start looking at decent locks,building materials and triple glazing.

Edit: after reading the various reports about the case, yeah he was definitely more interested in killing them than self preservation,kids never stood a chance, send him to the chair!!

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post #5 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 06:34 PM
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I don't agree with what he did, and I think this is another case of why civilians should not be allowed guns at all, however, the teens were there to commit a crime, it's not as if this chap loaded his weapon, drove out to make out point and picked a couple at random, break in to a house for any reason other than lawful (checking on an elderly neighbour/ rescuing an abused child/pet etc) and I don't think you can argue with whatever happens to you when caught. Touch wood I've never been the victim of a serious crime, my car was broken into a few years back, I'd just got back from a lengthy deployment, it wasn't the fact that my car had been broken into that gripped my shit but the violation of mine and my girlfriends rather personal possessions that did for me, if I'd woken in the night to see the filthy chav scum in the act I'd have actually killed them, if they were lucky I'd have just maimed them
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post #6 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 08:02 PM
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From my point of view, that Castle Doctrine sounds like the problem. What the f*k? Is that real?

I see both as murder. There is no mention that the teena had violent past or that mr Smith had concern for husbilen life so no self-defence. But that castle doctrine should cover for that. Sounds dead crazy though.

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post #7 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-23-14, 09:13 PM
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As a proud, gun-owning American, I fully support the spirit of the law and the right to keep a gun in your home to protect yourself, your family, and your property. If someone broke into my house in the middle of the night, a pistol would definitely be in my hand as I called the police. I'd confront the thief after doing that.

That all being said, this case is fucking ridiculous. Based on everything I've read and heard on the radio, this guy was made out to sound like a remorseless sociopath. The boy being killed was bad enough, but ok, maybe I could be convinced that it was necessary.

He murdered that girl though, no two ways about it as far as I'm concerned. He already fucking shot her... It's crazy but it almost brings tears to my eyes, the fact that someone could have such disregard for life when the threat of danger and robbery had well passed. She posed no threat to him or his property. What the fuck could you be thinking at that point?

They didn't surprise him while he was cleaning his gun, you know? If it were up to me, I'd love for him to be slowly tortured to death. Too bad. If he's convicted, I wouldn't be surprised if he received the death sentence. Of course, he'll never actually be executed. Instead, we'll end up paying millions of dollars for him to receive health care and cable TV in his cell.

Ugh, just fucking disgusting, the whole situation...


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post #8 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 08:26 AM
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Strictly speaking, by the castle doctrine, shooting the boy is self defense. Dragging the girl out to the barn, reloading, and then putting her down too is not. Pretty cut and dry, really-- he'll be convicted of second degree homicide in the case of the girl, and at the most there will be civil charges for wrongful death with the boy, but no criminal charges.


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post #9 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 11:04 AM
nice boy, daft though !
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Im not its as cut and dry as that horus, had the lad been armed or had threatened the owner with violence it might be justified homicide in the lads case, but even then it gets a bit grey when you consider it seems like he was essentially lying in wait for them, I think the jury will go with double murder on the grounds he was waiting and gave the lad no warning or chance to surrender

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post #10 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-24-14, 02:11 PM
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There is fine line, he stood on the line and killed someone then jumped off the line, shuffled a few feet away from the line and then shot someone else

He should win a fruit basket for killing the boy (bearing in mind he had broken in twice previously) and then get the death penalty for remorselessly murdering a second person (regardless of gender)

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