Killing a Burglar Murder or Self-Defense? - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #21 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-25-14, 12:48 AM
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post #22 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-25-14, 03:04 AM
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Im not its as cut and dry as that horus, had the lad been armed or had threatened the owner with violence it might be justified homicide in the lads case, but even then it gets a bit grey when you consider it seems like he was essentially lying in wait for them, I think the jury will go with double murder on the grounds he was waiting and gave the lad no warning or chance to surrender
It is actually that cut and dry-- the Castle Doctrine laws are pretty specific, in that if someone breaks into your house for any reason, you have a right to defend yourself and your property with any available force, including, but not limited to Pappy's Shotgun and/or Ye Olde .40 handgun loaded with Action Express rounds.

The only variance in the law I know of is whether or not you're allowed to shoot them in the back. In Indiana you aren't, but most states don't care.

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post #23 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-25-14, 09:06 PM
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I am not a gun guy and I don't like them at all that being said I have always gone under the assumption that if someone breaks into my house when I am there that they are there to kill to me so you can beat that I am going to kill them first. Both teens were old enough to know that breaking into a house is against the law so breaking into someones house is going to piss them off. If the old man was sitting there with his gun in his house so what don't break in. I don't have a gun but as a chef and knife collector I have lots of knives, swords and axes all over my house. If someone breaks in I am not going to say get out I am chopping off whatever gets into my house.

Now I think this guy was a total cunt for reloading the gun and shooting them repeatedly to make sure they were dead and he should get the death penalty.


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post #24 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 12:48 AM
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Yeah, I'm with you Morfang. It isn't the fact that he shot them, which is a horrible thing to happen but not unjustified. These kids (the boy, at least) had worked for the homeowner one summer, then repeatedly broke into the house to steal stuff. The homeowner called the police on previous occasions but I guess lives in an area where the police don't reliably respond to emergency calls.

Intruders in your home? Fair enough, shoot them. If they die when you shoot them the first time, it's tragic but an assfull of buckshot is completely justified in my mind. Awful, to be sure, and avoided at all costs, but not uncalled for. But without warning? And executing them? Fuck... that is some inhuman shit. Well, inhuman isn't the right word, since I suppose it isn't abnormal based on the track record of our species.

And they say we're all desensitized to violence because of the movies and games we play... heh.


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post #25 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 07:44 AM
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In Canada he would have probably got a Manslaughter charge for the boys death, and second degree murder for the girl. The reason being that trespassing in Canada doesn't authorize the automatic use of any force in removing assailants unless they are a immediate threat.

Also he had a loaded firearm, while the robber had no such weapon. This imbalance in power means he could have easily defended himself or simply ordered the assailant to leave at gun point. He made a conscious decision to use deadly force instead of taking the necessary steps to avoid the use of deadly force. Now if the kid had a knife drawn or had a gun himself then he would have been justified in the first instance of using deadly force, but even then he tampered with a crime scene and expressed little remorse for killing a fellow human being. In all honesty this individuals callous attitude and eagerness to use deadly force would show him as a bigger threat to society then some petty bugler.

Now regardless of how you view the first instance it should be obvious that the second use of deadly force was unprovoked and deserves to be viewed as a simple case of murder, whether its manslaughter, murder in the second degree or murder in the 1st degree is up to the courts.

Also I find the argument that its self defense, and that the kids should have known better really ignorant of the reality of the situations. I mean the sheer laziness of such a attitude is sickening. Firstly if they broke in multiple times in proves that they aren't trying to hurt anyone and are just there to steal stuff to pawn off. Second there are hundreds of inexpensive ways to avoid having to use deadly force. I mean my house was broken into and I spent a hundred bucks on locks and asked my neighbors to watch my house. Not only did we catch the criminals trying to break in do to them not being able to figure out how to get past our new locks, but also our neighborhood started catching the thieves so many times that they stopped altogether bothering our neighborhood altogether. Do strategies like this always work? No, but only a psychopath would prefer murder over at least trying these alternatives first. Remember contrary to how retarded action movies depict criminals they are ultimately people who have families and friends, do you really want to explain to them that you blow their fucking kids head apart because he was trying to steal your shitty tv?


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post #26 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 05:11 PM
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Murder was definitely on his mind ahead of time, given all the preparation and stuff. How hard would it be to force a teenager to the ground with a shotgun in his face? He'd either piss himself or run. If stupid enough to try something violent, then by all means pull the trigger. But clearly this wasn't just about defending his property. He was sick of these kids robbing him with impugnity, which I still sort of find crazy.

As you say, why not install some better locks? Some signs warning them that the homeowner is armed and ready to shoot trespassers/intruders? It's obviously speculation, but it does seem like he planned to kill them well before they broke in for the final time. He even recorded the audio of the entire event. Calls the girl a bitch as he shoots her repeatedly, and she laughs when his gun jams before he executes her... fuck. Horrible stuff, but the audio and his statements directly fuck himself over in terms of his self defense story. Someone of sound mind probably wouldn't have acted this way.

For me, the worst part about this story is the minority of Americans who are glad it happened. "Welp, now thieves will think twice before breaking into someone's home."

No, they won't. They're criminals because they're either so useless or so stupid that they can't come up with other ways of making money. It isn't exactly a viable long term career, you know? The 'career criminal' in this country probably spends more time incarcerated than free, and quite often they just keep committing crimes when they get out, ending right back in the hole. Again: stupid or worthless.

Maybe it's due to a lack of education, options, or positive role models, but poor/marginalized people in the USA seem to fall into the same patterns again and again. Young men, especially. And if you start young, you grow up getting arrested, locked up for a while, then released. Rinse and repeat.

The part that I struggle to accept is that an individual can't, on their own, realize they're throwing their life away. It's easy for me to criticize as someone with a happy/successful life, but it just boggles the mind. "Damn, it sure sucked being locked up for 7 years. Oh well, there's no way that this guy is an undercover cop too. Right to remain silent? What are the odds?!"


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Last edited by venomlust; 04-26-14 at 05:30 PM.
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post #27 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 05:47 PM
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post #28 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LukeValantine View Post
Also he had a loaded firearm, while the robber had no such weapon.
Keep in mind that in previous break ins, the robber(s) had stolen some of his other guns. Ignoring the fact that he was looking to kill regardless, he likely was working off the assumption that it was the same person/people and that if there was another break in they might have some of his own weapons.

The fact that those stolen weapons were not secured somewhere though, thats a huge problem that he caused.

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post #29 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Firstly if they broke in multiple times in proves that they aren't trying to hurt anyone and are just there to steal stuff to pawn off.
So this is an excuse to just accept it? Some guy breaks into my apartment, makes off with my property, and thats ok,"...becuase poor Johnny is to stupid/ignorant to find an honest way to make a living." By your definition every Robbery, Careeer Criminal, and Thief is a victim. Victimize everyone(like were already doing), and the next thing you know everyone will be on social welfare, drugs will rule this country, and Rape, Theft, and Murder won't be crimes anymore. Perhaps I should be compensated by the courts because I was robbed, and now I'm a victim. Just the thought sickens me

No, if he broke in multiple times then you must stop him. A lot of young kids here in America think they can get away with such crimes because their juveniles; and wont get severely punished. Additionally they learn from these behavoirs and teach others kids the same thing, spreading the problem. For some of us who don't make a comfortable wage getting Robbed is tantamount to someone destroying our car. No car, no transportation, no work, no money; your toast.

So honestly I may have warned him, but I would have put a slug right through him. That is the lads fault for choosing to commit such a crime, and probably a risk he was well away of(especially if he knew the old man had guns). The girl probably should have been held until police arrived; then we may have had some answers.

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The 'career criminal' in this country probably spends more time incarcerated than free, and quite often they just keep committing crimes when they get out, ending right back in the hole.
Reason why we honestly need to exile them all to some remote island and let nature take it's course. That will teach people real quick.

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Originally Posted by morfangdakka View Post
I have lots of knives, swords and axes all over my house. If someone breaks in I am not going to say get out I am chopping off whatever gets into my house.
Damn......remind me not to ever go to your house.



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post #30 of 71 (permalink) Old 04-26-14, 11:15 PM
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Reason why we honestly need to exile them all to some remote island and let nature take it's course. That will teach people real quick.
Yeah that really worked last time the british tried it.
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