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post #81 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-07-14, 09:31 PM
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It's interesting to see that people are equating the fact that we accept violence in a fantasy setting, as a reason we should accept rape in a fantasy setting.

We all play wargames where we roll dice to see if we maim, murder and mutilate our opponents - so would we all be ok if GW brought in rules so we could rape our opponents army as well?

I'm sure many forum members play computer games where you can shoot, stab, decapitate and slaughter other characters - but I doubt there's many who play games where you rape the other characters.

Fantasy and sci-fi are fundamentally meant as escapism, where we disconnect real life from the actions and motivations of the characters we play or read about. Rape is much more than an action, it's psychological and deeply rooted in emotion and empowerment, and hence it's difficult to disconnect our real life feelings from a character in a game or story.

I'm not saying rape has no place in fantasy or sci-fi, it absolutely does, but it needs to be handled sensitively and effectively, and it should be necessary to the narrative to warrant it's inclusion.

I've only read a few black library novels, and i'm not a huge lore buff, but my view of 40k is it's a pretty 12A-15 kind of place. With this in mind i find it difficult to see this diorama as anything more than a bunch of models stood around, and a very ham fisted(though fantastically presented) attempt at conveying a deplorable act.


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post #82 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-07-14, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by imm0rtal reaper View Post


I don't know if this was the point you were trying to make, if not I apologise, but rape is not beautiful. This is not a scene about sex, this has nothing to do with sexualisation. It's about rape, which is NEVER ok.


It might not have a place in our day to day hobby (such as being on display in a FLGS, or being on your gaming table.) But it very much does have a place.

Disgustingly, rape is still a topic that most people shy away from and ignore. It's easier to ignore it than it is to address it.

I don't know what the artists original intentions for this piece were. And I don't care. This piece gets in your face and screams "rape is still a thing you know. Just becuase it makes you uncomfortable and you prefer to ignore it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen." and, in my opinion, that's a good thing. Because people (and I don't just mean victims here, becuase talking about it for them is a much more complex issue) should talk about rape.
I was talking about general repression and fear of our own sexuality. In no way do I condone rape. I was making a comparison that in our society for a long time we have been shying away from freely expressing anything remotely sexual, while in comparison promoting violence. Of course its wrong to outright show porn in public media , but violence in any media is by far more accepted than a physical act of love.
However so far, each newer generation has been more open to wider range of ideas (at least in general). Look at this example, a male organ had to be covered up on a statue because it was apparently inappropriate? While its an old example from few hundred years ago it still happens.
Its been studied while without much effect that sexual repression ,illiteracy and denial can lead to sexism and sexual abuse.

To bring up a same topic of sexism that is being discussed here. What would be your reaction if you replace the Eldar with a Guards man, and Guards with Eldar woman? The reaction would be completely different, people would say "Guards dream come true" or something along those lines.

The original intentions of the work dont matter and only should to the creator. If we cared about the original intentions we should not wear any Adidas cloths since they used to make uniform for Nazi army, or drive Mercedes or Porsche since they made tanks that were used to fight Allies.
We should only care about the work itself and what ideas it represents to us. Its the same when people judge an actor or a singer by his personal life based on some gossip. What do you care what he does in his own time?
That is blatant hypocrisy.
Watch this and tell that its not a good representation of how one sided a world can be sometimes.

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Young children can play with pens and pencils as well, does that mean we shouldn't draw the same scene on paper? It's not as though he's displaying it on a shelf in his local store. I'm also not sure what you mean by "younger minds" - do you mean people under 15? Because that's the age our society tells us we're allowed to see naked boobies (although it's perfectly ok to have singers wearing roughly 30 square centimeters of clothing prance about on MTV grinding their crotches into other people all day long)? Is it the nudity that bothers you, or the "darkness" of the scene? If it's the "darkness" then, if the younger minds are into this hobby, then they know that "darkness" is part and parcel of 40k and WFB, as shown by some of the linked artwork from GW's own books of a guardsman having his entrails feasted on by Ripper Swarms and so on. The linked diorama is much MUCH less explicit than that.
The argument about "it will hurt children" generally doesn't hold true and only brought up when one doesn't have any other argument to defend his point.
If it hurts children why do you let them play this game to begin with? Why do you let them go to the mall where they sell alchohol, cigarets,medical drugs? Where they can see advertisements with almost naked man/woman? Why do you let them watch TV, listen to music, read books, go to museums. By the logic "this can hurt children", they should be kept in a closed box where they can see nothing, hear nothing, talk nothing.

If your child got hurt from a lack of comprehension it is because of bad parenting or more likely absolute lack of it. Most children are smarter than most parents make them out to be, a lot of times protecting children mentally leads them to be underdeveloped or lacking in knowledge about most basic things like sex. Teach children what it is and how to handle it rather than deny the fact that it exists.
It is a young mind that is most susceptible to influence.

Funny enough it is people who outright deny this work, and call it "shit" give the shortest reply and lack of any opinion why. Now we can see who is close minded.
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post #83 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-07-14, 11:49 PM
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The argument about "it will hurt children" generally doesn't hold true and only brought up when one doesn't have any other argument to defend his point.
If it hurts children why do you let them play this game to begin with? Why do you let them go to the mall where they sell alchohol, cigarets,medical drugs? Where they can see advertisements with almost naked man/woman? Why do you let them watch TV, listen to music, read books, go to museums. By the logic "this can hurt children", they should be kept in a closed box where they can see nothing, hear nothing, talk nothing.

If your child got hurt from a lack of comprehension it is because of bad parenting or more likely absolute lack of it. Most children are smarter than most parents make them out to be, a lot of times protecting children mentally leads them to be underdeveloped or lacking in knowledge about most basic things like sex. Teach children what it is and how to handle it rather than deny the fact that it exists.
It is a young mind that is most susceptible to influence.
There is a world of difference between teaching your kids about sex education and letting them casually come into contact with rape references in a situation where they can be trivialised in the same way violence and death are.

My daughter is 4. She already knows about how babies are made and grown, and the difference between boy and girl genetalia. Does that mean I'd be willing to teach her about the horrific psychological trauma that is rape, and how she's likely to come across it at least once in her life? Hell no. Not til she's much older.

There is a time and place for all these things. And in a situation where it becomes trivialised is not the place to learn them, as that lessens the lesson. Trivialising violence and death is one thing, especially given we're talking about *war* games. Trivialising one of the deepest and most fundamental psychological traumas you can inflict upon another human being (both male or female) is another.

There is a lot of crap out there I want to shield my kids from. And I know that eventually they'll come in contact with it, and hopefully I'll have taught them enough to be able to deal with it. That doesn't mean I want to be playing Monopoly with them and have a "you were caught raping a girl in a back alleyway, go straight to jail" card come up.

There are good reasons things like rape are left out of games. We've been over many of them in this thread already. I wasn't wheeling out "it'll hurt kids" as a last ditch thing, it's the simple truth. There are many things out there that will hurt kids - hiding them from it won't do them any good, but is slamming it in their faces in a *game* going to be better? I think not...

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post #84 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Varakir View Post
It's interesting to see that people are equating the fact that we accept violence in a fantasy setting, as a reason we should accept rape in a fantasy setting.

We all play wargames where we roll dice to see if we maim, murder and mutilate our opponents - so would we all be ok if GW brought in rules so we could rape our opponents army as well?

I'm sure many forum members play computer games where you can shoot, stab, decapitate and slaughter other characters - but I doubt there's many who play games where you rape the other characters.
It's not about "acceptance" as far as I can see. No-one is saying that it is (or should be) a part of our active participation in the hobby - no-one has yet argued that they want to be able to rape someone's Howling Banshee with their Dark Eldar Kabalite in Kill Team. Likewise I don't think many shooter fans would appreciate rape being added to the next Crysis game (or whatever).

However there is also the fact that sex appears to simply not happen in 40k, like at all. Despite having a literal god of sex. Which is either sad or hilarious, depending on your point of view. Hand in hand with that lack of sex goes a lack of rape, which is rather far fetched in a fictional setting which has dozens of races, not to mention countless human factions all viciously trying to eradicate and brutalise each other. It's simply not internally consistent that we should have a made up universe that is so "Grimdark" but where Rape doesn't happen. There's a difference between acknowledging something's existance and glorifying/promoting it.

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Fantasy and sci-fi are fundamentally meant as escapism, where we disconnect real life from the actions and motivations of the characters we play or read about. Rape is much more than an action, it's psychological and deeply rooted in emotion and empowerment, and hence it's difficult to disconnect our real life feelings from a character in a game or story.
I don't really see the moral difference between reading about somebody raping someone else, and someone strangling another person with barbed wire (which is mentioned in the HH series). They both appear on the surface to be equally brutal and horrific acts that no sane person would ever want to experience or read about. The *only* reason Rape is more shocking than murder is because society freely talks about murder every single day - there is nothing intrinsic in the act to make it more or less reprehensible than any other crime/sin/whatever.

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I'm not saying rape has no place in fantasy or sci-fi, it absolutely does, but it needs to be handled sensitively and effectively, and it should be necessary to the narrative to warrant it's inclusion.
From my point of view, this diorama is incredibly sensitive, by conveying with a minimum of explicitness exactly the emotions present in a Rape scenario from the victim and the perpetrators and even bystanders - you can see contempt for the woman, the rage for the enemy, the fear and helplessness of the Eldar, and the disgust and doubt of the bystanders. I defy you to find a better or more masterfully encapsulated depiction of Rape in any art form.

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There is a world of difference between teaching your kids about sex education and letting them casually come into contact with rape references in a situation where they can be trivialised in the same way violence and death are.
I'm curious as to how you think this diorama trivialises rape. Through the choice of models and sculpture as the medium for the message? How is it any different to other art forms or television?

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There is a time and place for all these things. And in a situation where it becomes trivialised is not the place to learn them, as that lessens the lesson. Trivialising violence and death is one thing, especially given we're talking about *war* games. Trivialising one of the deepest and most fundamental psychological traumas you can inflict upon another human being (both male or female) is another.
So you're drawing a line between what it's ok to trivialise, and what it's not acceptable to trivialise, based on the theme of the game you happen to be playing at the time? It's ok to trivialise genocide, because we're playing a game where we kill each other - which inherently implies that were I to create a game about rape, then it would be equally fine to trivialise rape, and unacceptable to trivialise genocide within the context of that game. That sounds pretty absurd to me.

The only way the argument makes sense is by doing two things: By attaching a different moral weight to Rape over things like murder and torture (which I dispute), AND by removing the association between the act and the game in which it is presented - the trivialisation of a crime is not conditional upon the context in which it is performed. Trivialisation of crimes of any type is either morally acceptable to you, or it is not. Saying that it's acceptable to trivialise some crimes and not others, or to accept trivialisation in certain contexts but not others, holds no water as an ethical argument at all.

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There is a lot of crap out there I want to shield my kids from. And I know that eventually they'll come in contact with it, and hopefully I'll have taught them enough to be able to deal with it. That doesn't mean I want to be playing Monopoly with them and have a "you were caught raping a girl in a back alleyway, go straight to jail" card come up.

There are good reasons things like rape are left out of games. We've been over many of them in this thread already. I wasn't wheeling out "it'll hurt kids" as a last ditch thing, it's the simple truth. There are many things out there that will hurt kids - hiding them from it won't do them any good, but is slamming it in their faces in a *game* going to be better? I think not...
I absolutely agree 100% with protecting children from certain aspects of life until they are of an age to not be mentally scarred by it, and this argument would certainly be valid and the first basic line of defence... if GW were to openly and widely introduce Rape into their fiction/fluff/models etc. 40k could not sustain it's market to people under 18 if they did so, and it would be wrong to allow children/minors to play it or read their material.

However the case we are examining is not a case of Rape entering the mainstream consciousness of 40k across the world. It is a single model, on a single website, which can only be found through directed searches. You can find simulated rape pornography much easier than you could find this diorama through google. To say that this is inappropriate for children to see is to both state the obvious and simultaneously completely miss the point of the piece. The point isn't to show 11yr olds what rape looks like. In my opinion, I think the point of the piece is to bring up a fundamental examination of the hypocrisy of the 40k universe, and the adults who engage in the hobby, as well as draw attention to instances of Rape in the real world. Of course I don't know and haven't spoken to the creator, so that is just speculation on my part. But I am certain that it was not aimed at children, and therefore the argument that it is not suitable for children doesn't bear any weight in this instance.

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post #85 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 12:36 AM
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There is a world of difference between teaching your kids about sex education and letting them casually come into contact with rape references in a situation where they can be trivialised in the same way violence and death are.

My daughter is 4. She already knows about how babies are made and grown, and the difference between boy and girl genetalia. Does that mean I'd be willing to teach her about the horrific psychological trauma that is rape, and how she's likely to come across it at least once in her life? Hell no. Not til she's much older.

There is a time and place for all these things. And in a situation where it becomes trivialised is not the place to learn them, as that lessens the lesson. Trivialising violence and death is one thing, especially given we're talking about *war* games. Trivialising one of the deepest and most fundamental psychological traumas you can inflict upon another human being (both male or female) is another.

There is a lot of crap out there I want to shield my kids from. And I know that eventually they'll come in contact with it, and hopefully I'll have taught them enough to be able to deal with it. That doesn't mean I want to be playing Monopoly with them and have a "you were caught raping a girl in a back alleyway, go straight to jail" card come up.

There are good reasons things like rape are left out of games. We've been over many of them in this thread already. I wasn't wheeling out "it'll hurt kids" as a last ditch thing, it's the simple truth. There are many things out there that will hurt kids - hiding them from it won't do them any good, but is slamming it in their faces in a *game* going to be better? I think not...
Yes you are absolutely right, there is no place for rape in 40k as a game for children or in any game for children at all. Child's innocence should be preserved until they figure it out by themselves and grow out of it.
Nowhere do I say it is fine to slam them with it in the face is and should be better that way.

When I was a child I spent most of my time alone since my parents were always busy trying to provide for the family it was a hard time for us I learned most of the real world "problems" from books,TV and newspapers or just saw it in with my own eyes.
Life in 3rd world post soviet country was tough, alcoholism and poverty were and are a commonplace. I never believed in Santa or magic and my parents never had to explain it to me. I was raised knowing that a world is not all rainbows and chocolate but that everyone is capable of evil and that it lurks in every corner and should I not be careful something might happen. I dont think I ever had a sex talk or what is death talk with my parents at least not that I remember of. The best thing is, I was treated like an adult with a mind and body of a child.

Maybe it is difference of the time and worlds that we live in but I never had anything triviliased for me, I took it at a face value. By the age of 6 as far as I remember I already knew of murder, rape, and torture, how bad they were and how evil it was.
In no way I am judging you as a parent or condoning any actions you do or dont. I am simply presenting my point of view on the subject at hand since you brought up your experience of parent to child relation ship.

I grew up watching Bruce Lee movies, Jackie Chan, Shwartzneger and all those hyper violent movies of 80s and 90s, but sex was a taboo. Yes I understand why rape is, but just a general act of sex?
However here is a problem which I am facing why is violence so desensitized? Why can one trivialize violence what are the motives for that ?
And no I do not say lets trivialize rape.

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post #86 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 12:48 AM
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I think having this issue raised on occasion within your own comfort zone is precisely the shock value the issue requires.

Rape as a theme isn't exactly saturated within the bounds of 40k, just vaguely hinted towards in slaaneshi and dark eldar lore.

Having one instance like this crop up every now and then I feel is a good thing. It ensures we don't forget, we don't just brush it aside. But it doesn't dominate this hobby or others by any means.


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post #87 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 03:10 AM
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I don't really see the moral difference between reading about somebody raping someone else, and someone strangling another person with barbed wire (which is mentioned in the HH series). They both appear on the surface to be equally brutal and horrific acts that no sane person would ever want to experience or read about. The *only* reason Rape is more shocking than murder is because society freely talks about murder every single day - there is nothing intrinsic in the act to make it more or less reprehensible than any other crime/sin/whatever.
I would disagree that it's the only reason - I find rape more shocking due to the intent and motivation behind it. Murder can be motivated by so many things, and it can be painted as heroic, justified or necessary, especially in a fictional setting. You cannot apply the same motivators to rape in any setting, which is why I think the two should be considered separately.

I'll agree that some of these views are enforced by society, but do not stem from it.


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I defy you to find a better or more masterfully encapsulated depiction of Rape in any art form.
If you feel this diorama encapsulates rape for you, then i won't argue with you. I'm just saying that personally i find it quite bland and unnecessary. It's broaching a subject that has no place in 40k, which as you say is a virtually sex-less environment.

When i think of art which depicts rape, i'd think of something like Irreversible, which i found difficult to watch and made me sick to my stomach.


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post #88 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 06:10 AM
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the logic "this can hurt children",
This is hypocritical in itself to say. Nowhere in Warhammer 40k, in the 7 years I've played this Hobby, have I seen Rape mentioned or disucssed in Literature, Movies, Video Games, and Rulebooks. It is only vaguely mentioned in reference to the henious acts of Slannesh Followers, Choas Worhsipers, Dark Eldar, and Pirate Raiders. Rape has never, nor ever will be, a part of Warhammer 40k because 40k is built around a battlefield of tactically (or through Literature) slaughtering your opponent. We Nerds/Hobbyists don't care about Rape, and honestly don't wanna hear it.

When you spark discussions such as this you are honestly doing the same thing all other Liberal Academic's/Politicians do; cause a fight for no reason. No one Cares, Gives a Shit, or Wants to Hear about it! What was a simple observation about a remark turned into a ridiculous, and unwanted, discussion on the stupidity of "what could be." Serious, be ashamed, both of you.

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Its the same when people judge an actor or a singer by his personal life based on some gossip. What do you care what he does in his own time?
If he's a role model to my son/daughter who will hear and imitate what they say/do then yes....there business is my problem. If Justin Bierber is gonna become a drugged up thrill seeker that is his business until it affects my kids. Fine, no more Bieber for the kiddies. Perhaps if Mrs. Spears had decided to become a role model I would not object, but she turned into a crack slut. Ok, her problem, until my neighbors daughter starts to try such things because she saw "Britney Do it," and eventually get pulled into County for Drug usage and UnderAge Eplopement (at the time I thought this the most reidiculous term I had ever heard).

So Yes, I blame them and criticize them when they fuck up. Especially when your drag racing down public avenues and putting people's lives in potential harm, or when you do drugs and go partying that inspires an entire egenration of young females to follow suits. If you want to step into the spot light that is fine, just realize your now a Celebrity; and Celebrities are Business. Don't have a good reputation, your income suffers, and I certainly will criticize you if it affects what I hear and say everyday.

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we have been shying away from freely expressing anything remotely sexual, while in comparison promoting violence.
"Shying Away?" You had better get your head examined because the last time I looked I saw several sexual references around me. The barely clad olympic skaters, the girl on the billboard promoting Victoria Secrets, Swimsuit models on Fox News articles, oh and a lovely pictures of a half-naked nudists sticker on some dudes truck. Sexual References are everywhere, it is part of the American culture and has been saturated into our daily lives since the "60's;" and the Sexual Revolution. While I'm not condoning it in any way we cannot sit here and claim to be helping the children when we let society bombard them everyday with Pictures, Media, and fellow human interaction with our sexually charged society. Times change, the "Level of Appropriateness" changes, the transmission of sexual references and pornagraphic material change, but sexual refences themselves stay the same. Sexy naked ladies/men for your viewing entertainment.



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This is hypocritical in itself to say. Nowhere in Warhammer 40k, in the 7 years I've played this Hobby, have I seen Rape mentioned or disucssed in Literature, Movies, Video Games, and Rulebooks. It is only vaguely mentioned in reference to the henious acts of Slannesh Followers, Choas Worhsipers, Dark Eldar, and Pirate Raiders. Rape has never, nor ever will be, a part of Warhammer 40k because 40k is built around a battlefield of tactically (or through Literature) slaughtering your opponent. We Nerds/Hobbyists don't care about Rape, and honestly don't wanna hear it.

When you spark discussions such as this you are honestly doing the same thing all other Liberal Academic's/Politicians do; cause a fight for no reason. No one Cares, Gives a Shit, or Wants to Hear about it! What was a simple observation about a remark turned into a ridiculous, and unwanted, discussion on the stupidity of "what could be." Serious, be ashamed, both of you.
You don't care about rape? You don't want to hear about it? Nice attitude, and well done for placing your potentially offensive opinion in the mouths of an entire section of the population that includes myself. I happen to care about rape. I happen to think it's a disgusting double standard that we "shouldn't talk about it" in the context of a hobby which revolves around murder, genocide and bigotry, and that double standard is only able to be established for two main reasons - that the hobby is marketed to young children, and that society has a tacit "don't mention the war" policy towards Rape in general.

If anyone should be ashamed, it should be you, for taking it upon yourself to speak for everyone else without their consent, to assume that you are in the right, and to tell other people that they have no right or reason to discuss different points of view on a controversial topic in a civil and adult fashion.

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"Shying Away?" You had better get your head examined because the last time I looked I saw several sexual references around me. The barely clad olympic skaters, the girl on the billboard promoting Victoria Secrets, Swimsuit models on Fox News articles, oh and a lovely pictures of a half-naked nudists sticker on some dudes truck. Sexual References are everywhere, it is part of the American culture and has been saturated into our daily lives since the "60's;" and the Sexual Revolution. While I'm not condoning it in any way we cannot sit here and claim to be helping the children when we let society bombard them everyday with Pictures, Media, and fellow human interaction with our sexually charged society. Times change, the "Level of Appropriateness" changes, the transmission of sexual references and pornagraphic material change, but sexual refences themselves stay the same. Sexy naked ladies/men for your viewing entertainment.
I don't believe that he's denying sexual material is available, but rather protesting the double standard of the media when it comes to how much and what types of each we can see.

As an example, we are not allowed to see naked breasts until we hit the 15 Age Rating (in the UK) and we can't see any full frontal male/female nudity until the 18 Certificate, and I *think* we are still not allowed to see an erect Penis at all - I could be wrong.

In comparison, we can watch torture, emotional brutalization, jellied babies being eaten, and someone getting their face smashed from a convex shape into a concave curve with a bottle in a 12A certificate (Pan's Labyrinth).

This is despite the fact that we are allowed to actually have sex at 16, and all have either Penis or Vagina/Breasts ourselves, and have definitely seen such body parts on other people (even if it's just your mum or dad when you were small). If you were to ask me which was more damaging to a young child - a love scene or a violent scene, I would choose the violent scene every time. I don't think our bodies are anything to be ashamed of, and neither is sex. On the other hand I don't want any children I might have to grow up thinking that violence is a valid way to solve problems, for example.

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post #90 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 01:30 PM
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@Sethis - before I make any reply, can you please clear up a confusion for me. The bits of my post you quoted were referring to rape in 40k and other games as a whole, but your responces seem to be both about as a whole and the diorama specifically. Would you like me to respond in regard to the diorama, or to the general subject of rape in games?

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