[NSFW] Thoughts on this highly controversial Warhammer 40,000 diorama. - Page 3 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #21 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 10:59 PM
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The problem I foresee with so many people rushing to the defense of this piece and being like "It's art" or "We accept sex but no murder but we're fine with our little plastic men murdering each other" is that it is woefully optimistic.

Now, it is possible it was done for "shock and awe" effect to promote discussion about the horrors of war and abuse toward women. That is entirely a possibility. However, two things strike me off the bat:
  1. Many of those who are rushing to it's defense are doing so because "It's art and shows how we don't accept sex but more readily accept murder/death", and that's all well and good, but if all the piece makes us do is talk about whether it's art or not rather than about how we stop sexual abuse, both in and out of the sphere of warfare, then it has rather failed in it's purpose. And thus far, it seems to have done just that.
  2. Just from a straw poll of how many people in my FLGS are male and how many folk I know on here are, I find it highly unlikely that the person making this piece was a woman (Yes that's not an accurate measure and I'm happy to be proven wrong before you all descend on me like a tonne of bricks). That suggests one of two things: either a very conscious man did it as a work of art to promote discussion (which I think a fair few people have said there are better ways to do this than painting miniatures. I mean, if you've got that much time, sign petitions and protest and other arguably more useful things), or (and this is the more likely candidate in my head) it is a fetishistic portrayal of rape because it's a piece done in a predominately male sphere with (as we've seen here) plenty of people who will justify it.

Now, if the artist came forward and he/she spoke about the inspiration for the piece and what it was meant to convey and provoke discussion about, then fair enough. But thus far, with no evidence to suggest that, and a bit to suggest that it was probably done by a man, who (again, from a straw poll of those at my FLGS both at uni and at home) are hardly the most conscious about feminist issues such as sexual assault, I choose to believe until proven otherwise that this was just an excuse for someone to let out their sick, twisted fantasies and frankly should be burnt.

Plus, it's not just inconsiderate of minors. It is inconsiderate of those who might have been in a similar scenario and such a piece might trigger painful flash-back/memories or even panic attacks. That, if nothing else, is enough for me to believe that this was a piece done out of woeful ignorance at best, and sick twisted fantasy at worst.

The only point of note is that the paint-job is, as many said, very good. But sadly, not enough to overcome the sheer disgust it makes me feel.

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post #22 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:15 PM
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I certainly intend no disrespect to those that are effected negatively by looking at this diorama, but I just don't get it. Seeing it happen in real life? Yeah, disturbing or disgusting doesn't even begin to describe it.

But seeing these toys... I feel nothing, truly. At least on an emotional level. From my perspective, the mistake is assigning some sort of real life morality to this.

Perhaps I'm some sort of monster. *shrug*


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post #23 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
The problem I foresee with so many people rushing to the defense of this piece and being like "It's art" or "We accept sex but no murder but we're fine with our little plastic men murdering each other" is that it is woefully optimistic.

Now, it is possible it was done for "shock and awe" effect to promote discussion about the horrors of war and abuse toward women. That is entirely a possibility. However, two things strike me off the bat:
  1. Many of those who are rushing to it's defense are doing so because "It's art and shows how we don't accept sex but more readily accept murder/death", and that's all well and good, but if all the piece makes us do is talk about whether it's art or not rather than about how we stop sexual abuse, both in and out of the sphere of warfare, then it has rather failed in it's purpose. And thus far, it seems to have done just that.
  2. Just from a straw poll of how many people in my FLGS are male and how many folk I know on here are, I find it highly unlikely that the person making this piece was a woman (Yes that's not an accurate measure and I'm happy to be proven wrong before you all descend on me like a tonne of bricks). That suggests one of two things: either a very conscious man did it as a work of art to promote discussion (which I think a fair few people have said there are better ways to do this than painting miniatures. I mean, if you've got that much time, sign petitions and protest and other arguably more useful things), or (and this is the more likely candidate in my head) it is a fetishistic portrayal of rape because it's a piece done in a predominately male sphere with (as we've seen here) plenty of people who will justify it.

Now, if the artist came forward and he/she spoke about the inspiration for the piece and what it was meant to convey and provoke discussion about, then fair enough. But thus far, with no evidence to suggest that, and a bit to suggest that it was probably done by a man, who (again, from a straw poll of those at my FLGS both at uni and at home) are hardly the most conscious about feminist issues such as sexual assault, I choose to believe until proven otherwise that this was just an excuse for someone to let out their sick, twisted fantasies and frankly should be burnt.

Plus, it's not just inconsiderate of minors. It is inconsiderate of those who might have been in a similar scenario and such a piece might trigger painful flash-back/memories or even panic attacks. That, if nothing else, is enough for me to believe that this was a piece done out of woeful ignorance at best, and sick twisted fantasy at worst.

The only point of note is that the paint-job is, as many said, very good. But sadly, not enough to overcome the sheer disgust it makes me feel.
Like it or not rape victims have to talk about what happened, pretending it didnčt happen only goes so far.

Too many people today got this romantic notion about war, they forget the savage aspects of it.
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post #24 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Like it or not rape victims have to talk about what happened, pretending it didnčt happen only goes so far.

Too many people today got this romantic notion about war, they forget the savage aspects of it.
Since it's their experience I'm fairly certain they get to choose whether they have to talk about it. Also, just because you don't talk about it to everyone, doesn't mean they are "pretending it didn't happen". Someone might never talk to you about it, but they are dealing with it with other people or in other ways. You can't just say "They have to talk about it." because, no they don't. Certainly not to you.

In some ways I agree with you, war is savage and savage things happen in it. But saying "Savage things happen in war" and making no attempt to try and do anything about that is belittling and, like this piece, a display of callous ignorance or cruel indifference. Plus, you can't take an act like rape and talk about it only in the sphere of war because it doesn't only live there.

As I said and you carefully dismissed, it shows a lack or respect for those who might have gone through something like that and don't wish to be reminded of that. Plus, in all likelihood, it wasn't constructed as some piece of art by someone who has any knowledge or respect for the gravity of the subject they are handling. It's likely some guy with a weird obsession that made into a diorama and everyone is rushing to defend it as "art" despite no word from the "artist" that it was ever intended for that.

Plus, and again I said this and you ignored it, if you have countless hours to sink into something like this and your really care about the subject matter, surely you could find a more productive way of helping such events be brought to people's minds and remind them that these things happen and need to be stopped. Again, without evidence of such attempts alongside it at least, this work just screams "fetish" to me which is just sickening.

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post #25 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:32 PM
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This just looks like someone's rape fetish in visual form to me. Instead of doing x rated fanfics this guy has put it in plastic and paint form. It has nothing to do with the true horrors of war and everything do to with a guy who wants to put this on a shelf and wank to it and the reactions he got from doing it.

http://i.imgur.com/aPfHUHy.gif?1




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post #26 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-03-14, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
The problem I foresee with so many people rushing to the defense of this piece and being like "It's art" or "We accept sex but no murder but we're fine with our little plastic men murdering each other" is that it is woefully optimistic.
Given what we see on the picture, the various faces that show vastly different emotions on each of the models, I tend to doubt that this was someone doing this for a sexual/power fantasy. Were that the case why would he put the trouble into creating a guardsman who does not look happy about what he is seeing in front of him (who also seems to be hitting a button, an alarm maybe?), plus the tank driver who seems to be looking more at the guy taking his pants off then the Eldar? Were this for a sexual/power fantasy those models don't fit with the theme of it.

Now you COULD make the argument that he painted those 2 mini's as his subconscious mind knowing this is wrong and it's a cry for help but I find that to be MUCH more far fetched then doing this as some sort of image on the horrors of war.

Quote:
Now, it is possible it was done for "shock and awe" effect to promote discussion about the horrors of war and abuse toward women. That is entirely a possibility. However, two things strike me off the bat:
  1. Many of those who are rushing to it's defense are doing so because "It's art and shows how we don't accept sex but more readily accept murder/death", and that's all well and good, but if all the piece makes us do is talk about whether it's art or not rather than about how we stop sexual abuse, both in and out of the sphere of warfare, then it has rather failed in it's purpose. And thus far, it seems to have done just that.
  1. It's a matter of context. This whole thread was to discuss the piece it self, which lead it's way into the message it's trying to convey. If the thread was about "Look at this picture, how do we stop Sexual abuse in and out of warfare" you might have merit to that argument. All art should do is convey something to you. If it sparks the conversation about if it's Art or not it's done it's job.

    Quote:
  2. Just from a straw poll of how many people in my FLGS are male and how many folk I know on here are, I find it highly unlikely that the person making this piece was a woman (Yes that's not an accurate measure and I'm happy to be proven wrong before you all descend on me like a tonne of bricks). That suggests one of two things: either a very conscious man did it as a work of art to promote discussion (which I think a fair few people have said there are better ways to do this than painting miniatures. I mean, if you've got that much time, sign petitions and protest and other arguably more useful things), or (and this is the more likely candidate in my head) it is a fetishistic portrayal of rape because it's a piece done in a predominately male sphere with (as we've seen here) plenty of people who will justify it.
This just sounds like a conspiracy theory. Your argument is that the creator of this piece (most likely male, as males mostly play this game) purposely made it with 40K minis because there are more men in the hobby who will justify the fact that it displays a heinous act (to appeal to his/her fetish) with "oh it's art." That's a pretty weak argument.


Quote:
Now, if the artist came forward and he/she spoke about the inspiration for the piece and what it was meant to convey and provoke discussion about, then fair enough. But thus far, with no evidence to suggest that, and a bit to suggest that it was probably done by a man, who (again, from a straw poll of those at my FLGS both at uni and at home) are hardly the most conscious about feminist issues such as sexual assault, I choose to believe until proven otherwise that this was just an excuse for someone to let out their sick, twisted fantasies and frankly should be burnt.
So your argument about what this piece is about boils down to "A guy most likely made it, as mostly guys are in this hobby, and they can't possibly understand "feminist" issues (sexual assault is not a feminist issue, it's a human one) so it MUST be some guys weird sexual/power fantasy."

That's one of the weakest arguments I've personally ever heard. Plus I love the fact that you left yourself open to change your opinion on the piece if you found out it was created by a woman, as though that makes anything shown in this better. The idea that Men can't understand something like Sexual Assault is bad logic.

Quote:
Plus, it's not just inconsiderate of minors. It is inconsiderate of those who might have been in a similar scenario and such a piece might trigger painful flash-back/memories or even panic attacks. That, if nothing else, is enough for me to believe that this was a piece done out of woeful ignorance at best, and sick twisted fantasy at worst.
By that logic so is saying rape on an evening news cast. If we're not allowed to talk about something because someone somewhere MAY have some painful memories about a similar event then NOTHING that ever needs to be discussed will be talked about.
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post #27 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 12:12 AM
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Have you ever read one of those rapefics? They get extremely detailed.

http://i.imgur.com/aPfHUHy.gif?1




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post #28 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by venomlust View Post
I certainly intend no disrespect to those that are effected negatively by looking at this diorama, but I just don't get it. Seeing it happen in real life? Yeah, disturbing or disgusting doesn't even begin to describe it.

But seeing these toys... I feel nothing, truly. At least on an emotional level. From my perspective, the mistake is assigning some sort of real life morality to this.

Perhaps I'm some sort of monster. *shrug*
Yes pretty much my point, while I did rush at defending this work for "art". If it does or doesnt have an actual meaning behind it is just a depiction of a certain subject on a certain form of media.
The point is people are scorning and hating on the artist and his depiction of the subject rather than the subject it self. This just shows how much the truth hurts that one would close his eyes on the actual problem and discuss how it was presented.

Why do you call him a pervert,fetishist, and a wanker when you know nothing of him? Why dont you call people who depict torture and murder, psychos or maniacs? This is very one sided.

You say if he really cares about public disposition towards rape why he "wasted" all that time creating this work, now why dont you say the same to people who write books or articles about it, talk on tv? He did what he knows how to do best.

The part where we actually know nothing about the work or the artist creates the best part of the discussion since it gives us no bias towards it or against and we can honestly express our thoughts/feelings about it.

Last edited by Stormxlr; 02-04-14 at 12:29 AM.
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post #29 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 02:11 AM
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It has no place in the hobby. It is sickening, it belittles everyone who has and continues to victim of rape.

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post #30 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-04-14, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Achaylus72 View Post
It has no place in the hobby. It is sickening, it belittles everyone who has and continues to victim of rape.
There's an idea, let's all pretend rape is something that doesn't happen and that soldiers of a oppressive government are all paragons of virtue.

It happens, making it a taboo subject is only making it something that people are going to be interested in.
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