[NSFW] Thoughts on this highly controversial Warhammer 40,000 diorama. - Page 10 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #91 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 06:21 PM
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This is an interesting debate, but like Silvertabby i'm getting rather confused as it seems to be spiraling out in all kinds of directions.

@Sethis - i'm interested to hear your views on my previous comment.

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As an example, we are not allowed to see naked breasts until we hit the 15 Age Rating (in the UK) and we can't see any full frontal male/female nudity until the 18 Certificate, and I *think* we are still not allowed to see an erect Penis at all - I could be wrong.

In comparison, we can watch torture, emotional brutalization, jellied babies being eaten, and someone getting their face smashed from a convex shape into a concave curve with a bottle in a 12A certificate (Pan's Labyrinth).

This is despite the fact that we are allowed to actually have sex at 16, and all have either Penis or Vagina/Breasts ourselves, and have definitely seen such body parts on other people (even if it's just your mum or dad when you were small). If you were to ask me which was more damaging to a young child - a love scene or a violent scene, I would choose the violent scene every time. I don't think our bodies are anything to be ashamed of, and neither is sex. On the other hand I don't want any children I might have to grow up thinking that violence is a valid way to solve problems, for example.
Pan's Labyrinth is a 15 cert, and there are several 12A films with naked breasts, and 15 films which feature full nudity. the system is far from perfect but mostly it takes into account context, setting and character depictions when assigning these ratings.

I disagree that a love scene would always be the less damaging choice - depending on the development of the child it can be difficult to process & comprehend scenes of a sexual nature, as people usually develop feelings of attraction much later than they encounter violence.


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post #92 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 07:09 PM
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@Sethis - before I make any reply, can you please clear up a confusion for me. The bits of my post you quoted were referring to rape in 40k and other games as a whole, but your responces seem to be both about as a whole and the diorama specifically. Would you like me to respond in regard to the diorama, or to the general subject of rape in games?
If you'd like to address both then I'm more than happy to read whatever you would like to say. I took from your posts that you had issues both with the diorama itself and the presentation of rape across the hobby, and that one was potentially symptomatic of the other, so if you'd like to clarify your stances on both the diorama itself and how your opinion of it meshes with your stance on the hobby and the subjects raised by it, then I'm sure that'd be helpful.

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Pan's Labyrinth is a 15 cert, and there are several 12A films with naked breasts, and 15 films which feature full nudity. the system is far from perfect but mostly it takes into account context, setting and character depictions when assigning these ratings.

I disagree that a love scene would always be the less damaging choice - depending on the development of the child it can be difficult to process & comprehend scenes of a sexual nature, as people usually develop feelings of attraction much later than they encounter violence.
I agree that there are examples that contradict my layout of the rating system - I personally don't know that much about how specifically they assign these things, but I believe my point in general about the disproportionate weight given to sex over violence in the media still stands. You can have as much varied and horrific violence in your film as much as you want, and skim by with a generally low rating (normally 15s, although I have seen some things in 12As that I would certainly not want any child of mine to witness), while even relatively harmless nudity/sex gets slapped with a much higher class of rating. Given that sex is generally propositioned as an expression of love, while violence is an expression of hate, it seems to me that we've got it the wrong way round. Even if, as you say, a younger person doesn't understand sexual attraction, then I believe that they are less likely to be damaged by the exposure to it (being given a mild case of "Daddy, why is that man and that woman doing that thing?" or possibly "Urgh, why would you touch a girlie?") compared to the nightmares/trauma etc of seeing someone getting their brains splatted all over the screen in 3D.

I could have sworn Pan's Lab was a 12A - I distinctly remember coming out of the theater saying that I would never allow a 12yr old to see it. I could be mistaken, it was a few years ago. Perhaps the DVD is a 15 when the movie on release was a 12A? Either way, it was just a general example and not the crux of the argument.

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post #93 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-08-14, 09:29 PM
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I agree that there are examples that contradict my layout of the rating system - I personally don't know that much about how specifically they assign these things, but I believe my point in general about the disproportionate weight given to sex over violence in the media still stands. You can have as much varied and horrific violence in your film as much as you want, and skim by with a generally low rating (normally 15s, although I have seen some things in 12As that I would certainly not want any child of mine to witness), while even relatively harmless nudity/sex gets slapped with a much higher class of rating.

Sex and violence are actually treated fairly similarly in the 12A & 15 ratings, do you watch many 12A romcoms? The amount of sexual references in some of those films can be quite significant when weighed up against the amount of violence in a 12A action film.

I'll agree that they do step over the mark with violence in 12A, and this is usually in a fantasy setting. King Kong, The Dark Knight and Spiderman 2 all got away with the rating despite over stepping what i would consider acceptable. At the same time, i'd also argue that the sexualisation of younger girls in 12A films also over steps the mark just as much.

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Given that sex is generally propositioned as an expression of love, while violence is an expression of hate, it seems to me that we've got it the wrong way round. Even if, as you say, a younger person doesn't understand sexual attraction, then I believe that they are less likely to be damaged by the exposure to it (being given a mild case of "Daddy, why is that man and that woman doing that thing?" or possibly "Urgh, why would you touch a girlie?") compared to the nightmares/trauma etc of seeing someone getting their brains splatted all over the screen in 3D.
If a child is asking those questions, they are not old enough to be watching a film where someones brains are splattered all over the screen - you wouldn't get that passed in anything less than a 15.

The violence in younger films is more prevalent because children can easily understand the characters reasons for fighting. They can identify with the heroes fighting the bad men, the adventurer slaying the monsters, or the brother and sister fighting over the TV control or whatever. It's easy for them to process and less damaging than trying to figure out a concept they have no basis to identify with. You can explain how children are made, and why people have sex to a child - but they will not truly understand until they are able to experience those emotions themselves.


Back on topic, do you think the violence in the 40K universe is at an equivalent level of rape and extreme sadistic and sexual violence? As I said earlier, I haven't really delved into that many BL books so perhaps i am being naive in thinking that GW's 12+ rating is appropriate. I already play small games with my son, and if he does want to get into it more seriously in future i will certainly have to keep a closer eye on it.

p.s - Pan's Labyrinth was definitely a 15 at the cinema, watched it twice


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post #94 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-09-14, 12:17 AM
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Sex and violence are actually treated fairly similarly in the 12A & 15 ratings, do you watch many 12A romcoms? The amount of sexual references in some of those films can be quite significant when weighed up against the amount of violence in a 12A action film.
How do you define "sexual references" and can you give examples? I generally detest romcoms so don't have much experience of them. Would you say that such references are equally threatening to the mental health of a child as the violence presented in films such as you've named below?

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I'll agree that they do step over the mark with violence in 12A, and this is usually in a fantasy setting. King Kong, The Dark Knight and Spiderman 2 all got away with the rating despite over stepping what i would consider acceptable. At the same time, i'd also argue that the sexualisation of younger girls in 12A films also over steps the mark just as much.
What do you mean by the "sexualisation of younger girls" in 12As? Can you give examples from films? And also bear in mind that the topic of "sexualisation of children", and the "damaging effects of exposing young children to sex scenes" are two seperate topics and debates - and I think we're straying around the periphery of on-topicness as it is.

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If a child is asking those questions, they are not old enough to be watching a film where someones brains are splattered all over the screen - you wouldn't get that passed in anything less than a 15.
So all other things being equal, would you say that violence and sex are given equal weight? That the amount of violence in films aimed at prepubescent boys is on par with the amount of sex, and are you happy with the level of explicitness of both? To clarify:

1. Do you think the amount of violence and sex depicted in films are too much, too little, or just right, and do you think that there is an imbalance in the amount of each - for example, way more violence than there is sex (which is my opinion)?

2. Do you think the graphicness of both the violence and sex is appropriate to the age the film is aimed at? I personally can't remember the last time I saw a film that made me think "That film has too much sex/nudity for it's rating" but I can certainly name, like you, a number of films that in my opinion had too much violence.

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The violence in younger films is more prevalent because children can easily understand the characters reasons for fighting. They can identify with the heroes fighting the bad men, the adventurer slaying the monsters, or the brother and sister fighting over the TV control or whatever. It's easy for them to process and less damaging than trying to figure out a concept they have no basis to identify with. You can explain how children are made, and why people have sex to a child - but they will not truly understand until they are able to experience those emotions themselves.
I would argue that I understood the concept of sex before I was 11, and was old enough to want to make out with a girl by the time I was 12. Since I think we can agree that PG and U films generally have negligible amounts of sex and graphic violence then we can focus on the pre-adult, post-child age bands of 12A and 15. I'm fairly certain by that point most children understand and potentially seek out intimate contact with other children of the same age, thus making the portrayal of physical affection more acceptable (to me) in a film than the portrayal of murder, torture et al.

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Back on topic, do you think the violence in the 40K universe is at an equivalent level of rape and extreme sadistic and sexual violence? As I said earlier, I haven't really delved into that many BL books so perhaps i am being naive in thinking that GW's 12+ rating is appropriate. I already play small games with my son, and if he does want to get into it more seriously in future i will certainly have to keep a closer eye on it.

p.s - Pan's Labyrinth was definitely a 15 at the cinema, watched it twice
I think that the codices and other rules/fluff supplements have a lower level of written violence, but a higher level of artist-portrayed violence than BL publications, so I guess you might weigh them differently based on the medium of expression. I would think that a disturbing picture is more harmful than written prose, but that's purely opinion. I haven't read *that much* BL stuff, mostly sticking to Abnett and the HH series (because I find most of the other authors terrible in the extreme) and I find that mostly they tread within the bounds of what I'd be happy to let my hypothetical 12yr old son read.

To answer the question, I point out that the lack of equivalency is the basis of my argument for the diorama being a valid contribution to the hobby - we are all desensitised to the amount of death and sadism present in the 40k universe, which is why the inclusion of sexual violence shocks us when potentially nothing else could.

Do I think that there are equivalent levels of "traditional violence" and sexual violence in GW's publications? No. There is far more "traditional" violence.

Do I think that this is morally acceptable in the theoretical sense? No, not at all. I believe that societies' reluctance to examine and "deal with" rape is harmful to rape victims, allows perpetrators to go unpunished, and contributes to the inequality of women (an example being the latest sexual misconduct charges being levelled at a Lib Dem MP who is refusing to apologise... with a significant proportion of the party backing him up). In my theoretical perfect world, then sex, violence, and sexual violence are all equally acceptable/unacceptable depending on what your audience is. Instead we have this predisposition to assume that violence is fine, sex is less fine, and sexual violance so far from fine that we avoid it like the plague.

Do I think that anything is going to change quickly or soon, and do I think that we should be adding more sexual violence to Warhammer in order to balance out the already existing sadism and bigotry? Definitely not, and no, respectively. 40k is aimed at a demographic where current laws would prevent it from releasing such material even if they were so inclined, and it would be harmful (if not actually lethal) to the hobby if such a demographic was altered. However that doesn't mean that individual artists/modellers should be prevented/disallowed from creating models and dioramas that have the capacity to make us think about things in a new light, or villified for "harming the hobby" when they do so.

To draw an example, if I were (hypothetically) to run a Deathwatch campaign as a DM (so not even a type of "art", just a gaming session), and had a Slaaneshi cult being investigated by the players which resulted in them finding a room full of rape victims who have been used by the Imperial Guardsmen and Officers who are members of the cult, and even have them walk in while such an act is taking place... is that harming the hobby? Is it damaging anyone? What about if I posted the session notes from each session on my blog? Would that harm the hobby? Just how wide is this line, and how exactly do you decide who crosses it?

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post #95 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-09-14, 01:27 AM
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hmm...if you look at the details of the eldar female, you can see her eyes are almost directed to the combat knife on the ground and her hand seemingly moving toward the combat knife. does this change anyone's thoughts of the diorama and it's message? is it still a message of something very real and tragic in war or is it just a twisted action scene?
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post #96 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-09-14, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
How do you define "sexual references" and can you give examples? I generally detest romcoms so don't have much experience of them. Would you say that such references are equally threatening to the mental health of a child as the violence presented in films such as you've named below?
I'll use About Time, which isn't too bad - but it's probably the most recent i've seen. It references Oral sex, several sex acts and a striptease, which i would class as threatening and confusing to younger children in the same way that the violence in the films i mentioned earlier would be. For a 12 year old i'd class both instances as acceptable, but younger children can and do watch these films.


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And also bear in mind that the topic of "sexualisation of children", and the "damaging effects of exposing young children to sex scenes" are two seperate topics and debates - and I think we're straying around the periphery of on-topicness as it is.
Agreed.it's verging off topic and doesn't really need to be discussed.


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I would argue that I understood the concept of sex before I was 11, and was old enough to want to make out with a girl by the time I was 12. Since I think we can agree that PG and U films generally have negligible amounts of sex and graphic violence then we can focus on the pre-adult, post-child age bands of 12A and 15. I'm fairly certain by that point most children understand and potentially seek out intimate contact with other children of the same age, thus making the portrayal of physical affection more acceptable (to me) in a film than the portrayal of murder, torture et al.
This is really an inherent issue with the 12A rating, it encompasses too broad a spectrum of ages. For a 12/13 year old i would say the depictions of both violence and sex are mostly acceptable, but for the younger children who do watch these films, there are many instances of both which are unacceptable.

People can, and will take their 6 year old to watch a 12A film. The responsibility here is really with the parent to view the content first and know their child well enough to make an informed decision of what they feel is acceptable. it's difficult to answer your questions with a blanket answer, as all films are different and all children are different. I'd agree that there is more violence prevalent in film than sex, but this is more to do with genre than an imbalanced view of the 2 subjects.

There are certainly films out there that overstep their rating due to sexual content rather than violence - Lars and the Real Girl for example. It's a great film, but it has some very deep & complicated identity and relationship issues for anyone to deal with, especially anyone under the age of 15.



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Do I think that this is morally acceptable in the theoretical sense? No, not at all. I believe that societies' reluctance to examine and "deal with" rape is harmful to rape victims, allows perpetrators to go unpunished, and contributes to the inequality of women (an example being the latest sexual misconduct charges being levelled at a Lib Dem MP who is refusing to apologise... with a significant proportion of the party backing him up). In my theoretical perfect world, then sex, violence, and sexual violence are all equally acceptable/unacceptable depending on what your audience is. Instead we have this predisposition to assume that violence is fine, sex is less fine, and sexual violance so far from fine that we avoid it like the plague.
I think i agree with you, and our disagreement is arising from our views on 40k. I don't find the diorama shocking,and i'm not trying to say we shouldn't talk about or acknowledge sexual violence. I'm not even saying the guy shouldn't be allowed to make the diorama - I just don't think it's appropriate in my view of 40k.

Like the 12A rating i think 40k encompasses such a wide audience that rape is not an acceptable subject matter, but you are probably correct in saying that the violent images in some books goes too far as well, and i appreciate why you're saying 'we accept this, why don't we accept that?'.

I'll certainly have to have a good look through the codexs in future before letting my kids use them (if they do actually want to play in the first place!)


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post #97 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-11-14, 04:33 AM
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Here's something interesting. From GW's Legal Page:

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WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.

So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:

- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.

- Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).

- Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.

- Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.

- Alter our trademarks in any way.

- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).

- Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop

- State that anything that you create using Games Workshop's intellectual property is "official."

- Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.

- Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.
I wonder how they try to enforce that, or if they ever have.


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post #98 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-11-14, 05:09 AM
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A few tangentially related responses to a slew of previous posts.

I would also posit that some of the strongly averse reactions to the diorama come from the tools playing aspect of warhammer 40k. Essentially, that add the army commander we take the 'role' of one side or the other, or one general or the other. This encourages viewers of the diorama to feel either voyeuristic or tacitly identified with the guardsmen. Being placed without permission, in the role of voyeur to a violent sex act in an unexpected context is enough to make almost any viewer uncomfortable.

For much the same reason, fans of shooter video games wouldn't want a rape attack to be added - because the players actions happen in game as the protagonist, then the audience is not just complicit but responsible. I know I would find that horrifying and would never want to play such a game. If such a simulation could even be called a game.

On the topic of film violence, ratings systems are never complete nor are they ever perfectly executed. And even then, they often only serve as a guide line. I quite vividly remember seeing "Saving Private Ryan" in the theater. When the lights came up at the end I could tell that the woman in the row in front of mine had brought a 6 or 7 year old boy. "Saving Private Ryan" is still among the most graphically violent movies I've ever seen. And I find that woman's poor judgement disturbing.

All of that is to say, I think western society hides healthy displays if sexual affection far more than we should. And simultaneously makes violence far too common.

And while I think the diorama might make a salient point about warhammer 40k I can understand how some viewers world be more put off than encouraged to reevaluate their hobby.

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post #99 of 105 (permalink) Old 02-11-14, 08:09 AM
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I've deliberately stayed out of this; but this thread is exactly what the guy was wanting.

Exposure.

"No such thing as bad publicity". It's getting him noticed. How many people visited his site to see it? Look at Damien Hurst, Tracy Emin, they produce absolute shite, but because it's recognised, its supported and made popular.

Conversely, look at the violin player who plays at the Carnegie who posed as a homeless person. He had no publicity for that, but made nothing, while the one which was publicised got him thousands of dollars.

Stuff like this shouldn't be made, it's not art for the sake of art, or political, it's overt sexualisation and desensitising, hopping on the bandwagon of liberals who are literally too fucking stupid to realise the difference to support and promote; and on sideliners who create discussion over whether it's right/wrong.

Want a way of life to live; if you have to question whether something is right or wrong, it's definitely wrong, and shouldn't be done. And that ranges from the government, to painting scenes of rape, let alone filming it; Caligula.

Having seen that film as well; I can say as well that they were right not to show it. It's not actually added to in any way by showing the rape scenes, they were pure smut and titillation to sell and desensitize; it would be like showing Sauron in Lord of the Rings torturing little kittens to show how evil he is. Going by the films, it doesn't actually say "why" he's so bad, after all, just that he is. But you don't always need that to enjoy a film; in the end that's what it's there for.



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Want a way of life to live; if you have to question whether something is right or wrong, it's definitely wrong, and shouldn't be done...
Really? So unless you prioritise someone's OPINION over another persons, then any time someone protests your actions or tells you that you're wrong... you should stop doing what you're doing?

By this logic we shouldn't have become involved in any conflict, ever.

We shouldn't have made multiple scientific and medical breakthroughs, from positing that the Earth rotates around the sun to the Human Genome Project.

We shouldn't put any diplomatic or economic pressure on countries who brutally suppress and massacre their own populations.

Questioning whether something is right or wrong is a very fundamental part of being a fully functioning human being. Whether you're a "stupid liberal", "sideliner" or whatever you identify yourself as. Always question everything that you are told about who is right, who is wrong, and why. Make a decision for yourself.

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