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post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-26-14, 10:23 PM
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You're missing the point.

If God is omnipotent, then why would Satan even challenge him in the first place. It doesn't make sense given Satan's supposed to be intelligent, cunning, dangerous, not an idiot.
Just because you have power doesn't mean you have the right to rule does it?
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post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-26-14, 11:26 PM
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Just because you have power doesn't mean you have the right to rule does it?
Isn't that the point of the bible though? God is the creator, God giveth and God taketh away?

According to your quote just here, God does not have the right to rule just because he has all the power, but that makes Satan's challenge utterly hollow. If we can figure it out so easily then Satan certainly could as well, and knowing it was futile wouldn't have issued it.

The story just doesn't make sense anymore, unless you still acknowledge that God is NOT all powerful. That's the only way the challenge works, because that's the only way it means anything. Implying that some of God's angels were indeed equal or at least on par with him. Therefore, we can ignore the bits about God being all powerful, we can also ignore the bits about God being the creator. Given what we've observed pertaining the the universe's growth and development, the formation of Earth and the evolution of life, where does God still fit in?

As someone who just took credit for all that? Only to be challenged by one of his servants for doing a shit job. God wanted obedience and ignorance. Satan brought about knowledge and free thinking.

Who do you owe more to?


Nonsense is our Salvation

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post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-26-14, 11:50 PM
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Isn't that the point of the bible though? God is the creator, God giveth and God taketh away?

According to your quote just here, God does not have the right to rule just because he has all the power, but that makes Satan's challenge utterly hollow. If we can figure it out so easily then Satan certainly could as well, and knowing it was futile wouldn't have issued it.

The story just doesn't make sense anymore, unless you still acknowledge that God is NOT all powerful. That's the only way the challenge works, because that's the only way it means anything. Implying that some of God's angels were indeed equal or at least on par with him. Therefore, we can ignore the bits about God being all powerful, we can also ignore the bits about God being the creator. Given what we've observed pertaining the the universe's growth and development, the formation of Earth and the evolution of life, where does God still fit in?

As someone who just took credit for all that? Only to be challenged by one of his servants for doing a shit job. God wanted obedience and ignorance. Satan brought about knowledge and free thinking.

Who do you owe more to?
I never said God didn't have the right to rule, I pointed out that that's the only thing he could be challenged on. Power and leadership do not go hand in hand. Maybe we gained knowledge and free thinking but look at us. Wars are started because of stupid reasons.
People starve because they can't afford things that should be free, while others gorge themselves on everything.

Men are forced to die in wars they don't agree with. People are ostracized because they are of a different race.

I want freedom as much as anyone, but I don't see it. We might have been given knowledge and free thinking but what did we lose?

From what I understand there was only two humans on earth when this change happened, what Gods intentions were clearly didn't start.
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post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 12:00 AM
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I never said God didn't have the right to rule, I pointed out that that's the only thing he could be challenged on. Power and leadership do not go hand in hand. Maybe we gained knowledge and free thinking but look at us. Wars are started because of stupid reasons. People starve because they can't afford things that should be free, while others gorge themselves on everything. Men are forced to die in wars they don't agree with. People are ostracized because they are of a different race. I want freedom as much as anyone, but I don't see it. We might have been given knowledge and free thinking but what did we lose?
At the end of the day Reaper, I don't believe anything in the bible ever really happened. To me it's just another ancient mythology trying to explain things that people couldn't at the time.

Judaism gave rise to Christianity. Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire who went on to conquer other lands. Christianity then found its way to the British, who in turn would conquer most of the world. Both of these Empires also made numerous modifications to the original belief system and spread it all over the place, for a long time making disagreeing with it punishable by death or imprisonment. Even in parts of the world today, Christianity holds sway and people who think outside it are ridiculed and sometimes even outcast by society.

Christianity's widespread influence is a result of circumstance, not due to any amount of legitimacy. And the state of Mankind is due to our nature. Not Satan fucking things up.

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From what I understand there was only two humans on earth when this change happened, what Gods intentions were clearly didn't start.
God told them not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. For if they had this knowledge they would know as he did. Satan (or the serpent depending on your version) encouraged Eve to eat, saying this knowledge was a good thing.


So we know what God's first plan was. He wanted ignorant and obedient servants to love and worship him unquestioningly. Satan showed us there were better things to do with our lives.


Nonsense is our Salvation


Last edited by Serpion5; 01-27-14 at 12:06 AM.
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post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 02:47 AM
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My view on the omnipotent claims.



Don't look at me like that... it's a legit question.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-27-14 at 02:50 AM.
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post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 11:29 AM
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At the end of the day Reaper, I don't believe anything in the bible ever really happened. To me it's just another ancient mythology trying to explain things that people couldn't at the time.

Judaism gave rise to Christianity. Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire who went on to conquer other lands. Christianity then found its way to the British, who in turn would conquer most of the world. Both of these Empires also made numerous modifications to the original belief system and spread it all over the place, for a long time making disagreeing with it punishable by death or imprisonment. Even in parts of the world today, Christianity holds sway and people who think outside it are ridiculed and sometimes even outcast by society.

Christianity's widespread influence is a result of circumstance, not due to any amount of legitimacy. And the state of Mankind is due to our nature. Not Satan fucking things up.



God told them not to eat of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. For if they had this knowledge they would know as he did. Satan (or the serpent depending on your version) encouraged Eve to eat, saying this knowledge was a good thing.


So we know what God's first plan was. He wanted ignorant and obedient servants to love and worship him unquestioningly. Satan showed us there were better things to do with our lives.
So you can tell from an unspecified amount of time how God wanted to rule us? According to the bible man was perfect, no herpes, AIDS or cancer yet satan told eve to eat from that tree and we lost all that.

I don't know about you but I'd much rather not have free will in exchange for cancer not existing.
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post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 11:35 AM
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I don't know about you but I'd much rather not have free will in exchange for cancer not existing.
Living mindlessly to worship some other being with ego issues is not my idea of living, but you do what you want. For a perfect omnipotent deity, God has a hell of a ball of insecurities. Little wonder his leadership was challenged. And if it turns out to be real and the Apocalypse looms, I know which side I'll be on.

We may not have perfect bliss but we have self awareness and as much potential as we decide to have. I find that infinitely preferable to the alternative.


Nonsense is our Salvation

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post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Serpion5 View Post
Living mindlessly to worship some other being with ego issues is not my idea of living, but you do what you want. For a perfect omnipotent deity, God has a hell of a ball of insecurities. Little wonder his leadership was challenged. And if it turns out to be real and the Apocalypse looms, I know which side I'll be on.

We may not have perfect bliss but we have self awareness and as much potential as we decide to have. I find that infinitely preferable to the alternative.
I fail to see how it's ego issues, We have self awareness and free thinking yet we don't use it.

For 16 years our parents dictate how our lives are lived, after that society forces us to conform to their ways. Anyone who lives differently is treated as an outcast or sent to jail because they broke social norms.

Name one aspect of life where we have control over what we do.

I know of only one thing, suicide.
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post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-27-14, 01:41 PM
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I fail to see how it's ego issues, We have self awareness and free thinking yet we don't use it.
Wow dude, way to generalise. And inaccurately too. If no one used either of those, mankind would still be exactly the same as it was millennia ago, and we wouldn't even be having this debate right now.

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For 16 years our parents dictate how our lives are lived, after that society forces us to conform to their ways. Anyone who lives differently is treated as an outcast or sent to jail because they broke social norms.
Broke social norms? I don't know where the hell you live, but the things we get sent to jail for like murder, theft, rape etc. are a little bit more than simply "breaking social norms". Unless you think that things like that are ok, as long as society would allow it.

And my parents, while providing structure and guidance, still allowed me a lot of freedom to choose my own pursuits and passions while I was growing up. They didn't simply "dictate" my life.


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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Name one aspect of life where we have control over what we do.

I know of only one thing, suicide.
I can think of a number of things I have control over. Societal rules provide a basic ethical structure for how I live, but I choose my career, my friends, my loved ones, my hobbies etc.

The human appendix. Proof of a higher power. A divine kill switch so to speak.

No one really likes a smartass, but people tend to like a dumbass even less.

Last edited by Chompy Bits; 01-27-14 at 01:44 PM.
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