Question for all: If God does exist, then why does evil exist? - Page 5 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #41 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by lokis222 View Post
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
-Epicurus

My two cents. If god exists and there is evil and this being is god as defined by Christianity, then according the the Epicurean Paradox, god is malevolent. If god is malevolent, then god desires evil. Thus evil exists.
My problem with the Epicurean Paradox in this argument is that you are basically saying that if people do not actively attempt to stop "evil" (which is in itself a highly subjective word) then they are malevolent. This is untrue.

Using the Epicurean Paradox all of us here are malevolent as we are not stopping "evil" that we know exists in the world. We don't actively work towards the destruction of "evil" so we must be "evil" as we allow it to continue. We should not get a free pass on being malevolent just because we can't wave our hands and "fix it" like God/god can.

Personally I've never liked these types of debates, as I feel it either elevates Man far beyond his stature while at the same time lowering God (or a god or whatever you believe) to a mortal level. This argument raises Humans up to being the center of the universe, but brings God down to being just a security guard not doing a job.

The better question isn't why does God allow "evil" but why are we, as a species that is so willing to elevate itself to stand on par with God, not above preforming "evil" acts?

I'd rather have that answer any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
For the same reason a parent gives their child a new privilege and then takes it away if they cannot handle it? (Returning it when they can of course.)
A pretty weak example, as without current social constructs parents would be unable to take away a privilege. A child could also still explore a revoked privilege just not under the direct eye of the parent.

But using your example, what if Humanity has already proven to God that they can handle the privilege of Free Will? What if, despite the horrific, Evil acts that humanity has done over our very brief time in the cosmos, we have shown a supreme being that we have a far greater (or even an infinite) capacity to do Good?

Shouldn't that argument hold as much weight?

Last edited by Wusword77; 05-10-13 at 01:44 AM.
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post #42 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
My problem with the Epicurean Paradox in this argument is that you are basically saying that if people do not actively attempt to stop "evil" (which is in itself a highly subjective word) then they are malevolent. This is untrue.
No it's not? It's not stating that at all. The paradox relates to the existence of evil being due to the existence of an omnipotent god of perfect goodness; hence if evil is present, then why does said god not do anything about it?; however, for evil to be present (as codified by the ethical and moral standards of said God), then that God must be present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

This says it better than me.

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Using the Epicurean Paradox all of us here are malevolent as we are not stopping "evil" that we know exists in the world. We don't actively work towards the destruction of "evil" so we must be "evil" as we allow it to continue. We should not get a free pass on being malevolent just because we can't wave our hands and "fix it" like God/god can.
It doesn't do that, though. To find that quote, I believe you'd need to look for Gandalf.

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Personally I've never liked these types of debates, as I feel it either elevates Man far beyond his stature while at the same time lowering God (or a god or whatever you believe) to a mortal level. This argument raises Humans up to being the center of the universe, but brings God down to being just a security guard not doing a job.
An oversimplification. But if we do what he says and desires, and be good, yet he still ignores us, why bother worshipping him at all? Is "not worshipping" him going to cause a biblical plague? Flood to end all floods? Armageddon?

Instead of said security guard not doing his job, God has become a Racketeer.

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The better question isn't why does God allow "evil" but why are we, as a species that is so willing to elevate itself to stand on par with God, not above preforming "evil" acts?
If God is omnipotent and all powerful and perfectly good, and we are made in his image, then why are we so susceptible to weakness and evil as a species? Pandora's Box is hardly a good example, and neither is Eve, as they were both created in "his" image.



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post #43 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 02:11 AM
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No it's not? It's not stating that at all. The paradox relates to the existence of evil being due to the existence of an omnipotent god of perfect goodness; hence if evil is present, then why does said god not do anything about it?; however, for evil to be present (as codified by the ethical and moral standards of said God), then that God must be present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

This says it better than me.
Except, as Good and Evil are subjective how can any being, even a Supreme Being, be Absolute Good? How can you be absolute on an entirely subjective subject?

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If God is omnipotent and all powerful and perfectly good, and we are made in his image, then why are we so susceptible to weakness and evil as a species? Pandora's Box is hardly a good example, and neither is Eve, as they were both created in "his" image.
Well, as we are now talking about a specific God, there are several explanations for that.

Using Eve, she was not made in God's image (the only female made in God's image being Lilith) but rather made from a man. One could take this as a being (and I'm gonna get yelled at for this) that is a warped copy taken from another image. The result is that we are all inherently screwed up as our race was created from an imperfect part (if you think Adam was perfect, as he was made in gods image).

As for Pandora Box, this is just another version of the fruit of knowledge. It implies that what allowed Evil into the world (and it is not wrong) is Man having knowledge that elevates him above the other animals in the world.

Last edited by Wusword77; 05-10-13 at 02:15 AM.
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post #44 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 04:16 AM
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So according to you, if I don't follow the bible to the word, I'm not a Christian? In order to be Christian I have to believe that God hates gay people and women must be virgins in order to be married? That's what I'm taking away from your argument here.

No I'm saying you are a bad Christian according to the tenants laid down by your own holy book. You want to use the Bible as a source of moral guidance or as a reference point at all you can't just pick and choose the bits you like. Well you can I'll just laugh at you and tell you to go and read the thing again.

And if a method doesn't work 100%, it doesn't work at all?

Oh so it only works some of the time then? Thats not what you said before. What about when its used to actively persecute and destroy people and civilisations what about then?

And my argument in my other thread was "God doesn't have time to give a shit".

So the being that created existance... time and space, the being who created everything who is all knowing and all powerful does't have time? Why doesn't he just make time, freeze time, redirect it, he is all knowing right? Or did he just forget? Yea that makes perfect sense. Remind me why you aren't next in line to be Arch Bishop? An oversight on their part I'm sure


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post #45 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 10:29 AM
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1.
Basically what you're telling me is "no I'm not telling you to be a bigot", but "you can't just pick and choose what you like to follow from the bible", which implies you're telling me that in order to be a "good" or "proper" Christian, I have to follow the bible to the word, which means I need to start stoning people, otherwise, according to you, I'm picking and choosing what to follow, and that makes me a bad Christian.

Just so you know, I've been to church before, the same people who want us to get rid of gay marriage and abortion are still preaching murder and thievery are sins, and to be kind to your fellow man, so you should also go up and start telling the catholic churches around the world (or at least Canada) to get their act together.


2.
What I said before was "it does work", which means it works. I never said it worked 100% of the time.


3.
Well why didn't he just poof Moses and the Jews to safety? Or save any of the other people on the run from malevolent forces? Answer that question and you're good.


And I'm not next in line to the archbishop because I'm not catholic.

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Last edited by Alsojames; 05-10-13 at 10:36 AM.
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post #46 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Alsojames View Post
1.
Basically what you're telling me is "no I'm not telling you to be a bigot", but "you can't just pick and choose what you like to follow from the bible", which implies you're telling me that in order to be a "good" or "proper" Christian, I have to follow the bible to the word, which means I need to start stoning people.

Pretty much, it's your holy book not mine, I didn't write the thing. I think its a heinous book and is one of the very few (along with Twilight) that should be burned.


2.
What I said before was "it does work", which means it works. I never said it worked 100% of the time. Well I'm sure of thats great comfort to the millions of people dead because of it... that you know they were just unlucky that they were ones who got screwed over by your faiths toss of the coin morality system instead of being blessed by it. Ah well them's the breaks you'd almost be forgiven for thinking that it was all made up. Have you checked out the IQ squared debate between Christopher Hitchens/Steven Fry and Ann Widdecombe/John Olorunfemi Onaiyekan on whether the Catholic Church is a force for good in the world. I enjoyed the hell outa it. You may not.


3.
Well why didn't he just poof Moses and the Jews to safety? Or save any of the other people on the run from malevolent forces? Answer that question and you're good.

So now I have to provide you with answers as to why your God does things? I love with religious people do this. "Oh the burden of proof is on you to prove my imaginary friend doesn't exist" but when its the other way round the anti thesiest/agnostic/person of a different faith has to prove their belief 100% not simply put the burden of proof back to the other side. This is why arguing with you lot is like dealing with children. It's not your pathetically simplistic belief that there is a man in the sky who created the world in 7 days no less and the only way he can come up with forgiving his creations for transgressions against the laws he created is by allowing his only son (who is 1/3rd of him but isn't...) to be murdered by those very creations. Its flat out refusal to admit there are flys in the ointment, logic gaps and contradictions and your inability to provide actual solid evidence that proves you are right despite over whelming evidence showing that evolution is real and that humans and monkeys share a common ancestor thus providing our origin, not this Adam and Eve fairy tale. However:

Other than your seminal work of "He doesn't have time to give a crap" you mean? (Which you still haven't actually explained or provided evidence off btw seeing as he is, according to the widely established holy book of the JC faith, all knowing, all powerful and all seeing, still waiting for you to come up with an answer to that one btw) I'll play, take your pick of posible answers:

- he's an evil meglomantic sychopath who enjoys fucking with peoples lives,
- he doesn't exist and never has or
- my personal favorite you have no idea what you are talking about.

Seriously have you even read the Bible, attended Church... talked to somebody who knows about the JC faith? Because from what I've seen you've just heard of it and made your own assumptions. Which is you know... fine but doesn't put you in any postion to be able to speak with any authority on the subject of the wider JC faith. You're own sure but not Anglican/Catholicism/Orthodox as a whole.
-



And I'm not next in line to the archbishop because I'm not catholic. Fair enough, I should have made that question clearer... with all your theological knowledge and foresight into the mind of God why aren't you next in line to be Arch Bishop of Canterbury. You are Anglican correct?
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post #47 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 11:57 AM
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So according to you, if I don't follow the bible to the word, I'm not a Christian? In order to be Christian I have to believe that God hates gay people and women must be virgins in order to be married? That's what I'm taking away from your argument here.
It's what the book says man.
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And my argument in my other thread was "God doesn't have time to give a shit".
This on the other hand isn't in that book at all, quite the opposite in fact.

You sure you read that thing?


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post #48 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 12:08 PM
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Different people have different views on the bible. It's why we have multiple sects of Christianity. I have my own.

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post #49 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 12:20 PM
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Different people have different views on the bible. It's why we have multiple sects of Christianity. I have my own.
In which you seem to ignore everything except the fairy tale portions.

Good glad we cleared that up.
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post #50 of 60 (permalink) Old 05-10-13, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Alsojames View Post
Different people have different views on the bible. It's why we have multiple sects of Christianity. I have my own.
So you picked the parts you liked and ignored the rest? Alright. Now give this next question some serious thought, because I'm not trying to offend. Why did you do that?


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