What if you were PROVED wrong? - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 05:00 PM
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The thing about Faith is that you never have to worry about "proving" anything.

As it stands today:

Many people put their faith in "God" and no amount of "proof" from the other side will shake that faith.

Many people have no faith in anything and just shrug their shoulders no matter what either side says.

Many people have put their faith in "No God" and no amount of "proof" from the other side is going to shake that faith.

After whatever theoretical "unshakable" proof appears the situation will remain exactly the same.

Why? Because, Atheism and Theism are both Faith based systems of belief that require you to believe that they are true despite any evidence to the contrary...that will not change.

Now maybe some Agnostic-types will go one way or the other, but in my opinion if they don't have enough faith to swing one way or the other right now, then "proof" will not shake their apathy.

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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry but you're wrong in your assumption that atheism somehow requires faith, it does not. I base my beliefs on the facts as they are presented, I don't have faith that there is no god, I'm not that arrogant, as the facts are presented I would be inclined to say there is no god as I am yet to see any form of proof for its existence. I could be proved wrong and I'm willing to accept that as a possible, yet unlikely, outcome.

I don't say there is no god, I simply say prove it.

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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 06:25 PM
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My faith is based on personal evidence, so if I received new evidence I would re-evaluate.

As I do not follow a hierarchical divinity the adjustment would hopefully be relatively smooth.
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 07:03 PM
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As a Pagan i think i would just go...ok he exists but it won't affect how i live my life, other than think maybe those who commit genocide in his name might shut the fuck up and start rethinking their .... but if he cracked the WBC on the head and sent them to hell then i might be inclinned to think he or she wasnt such a tyrant
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 07:30 PM
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Ah, religion, you return to the realm of Heresy...

If a God is proven to exist, then I'll carry on as normal, just being a tad more sceptical.

If a God is proven to exist and communicates with us, then it would be worth listening and following some or all teachings. Unless he/she/it is a cocknugget, I probably won't go worshipping. Besides, only a fucked up deity would value people blindly worshipping them to doing good in the world.

If all deities are proven to be nonexistant, then life as normal. However, it could be an interesting turn of events politically, economically, scientifically, etc.

Frankly, as long as religion doesn't hold stuff back, then it can be as it is. That way, if it's wrong, it's not done much wrong. If it's right, then it's not done anything wrong either.
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post #16 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury View Post
Sorry but you're wrong in your assumption that atheism somehow requires faith, it does not. I base my beliefs on the facts as they are presented, I don't have faith that there is no god, I'm not that arrogant, as the facts are presented I would be inclined to say there is no god as I am yet to see any form of proof for its existence. I could be proved wrong and I'm willing to accept that as a possible, yet unlikely, outcome.

I don't say there is no god, I simply say prove it.
Then you are not an Atheist, you are Agnostic. Atheism is an active disbelief (or non-acceptance) of a God...it is an active belief system, not merely a "well there might or might not be" belief system.

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post #17 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 08:23 PM
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If someone comes to a decision based on the evidence (or lack of) they have in front of them, and accepts that as a truth then that is not faith. I don't have 'faith' that 1+1=2, I 'know' this to be a fact.

Moreover, a religious or spiritual 'faith' in that sense of the word is a way of life set around core principles. Being an atheist, you don't necessarily follow any set moral or spiritual code. You just accept (or 'know') that God does not exist - it is not a belief. Calling it a belief would be contradictory.

Without wanting to talk wrongly on behalf Norm, he does indeed appear to be agnostic in the wider scope in that if real evidence were to present itself to persuade him of existence, then he would likely accept that. But with current evidence, he is classed as atheist because he is accepting the evidence that is present to him.

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post #18 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamtheeviltwin View Post
Then you are not an Atheist, you are Agnostic. Atheism is an active disbelief (or non-acceptance) of a God...it is an active belief system, not merely a "well there might or might not be" belief system.
Not really, what separates me from agnosticism is demanding evidence, I have no concrete evidence either way so it would be impossible for me to say, for certain, that there is a god or not.

An agnostic would say 'I don't know, there might be'

An atheist would say 'I don't know for certain but the evidence would suggest not'

Its possibly a subtle difference but its there.

For me there is simply too much evidence that contradicts what the bible says, that's not to say that at some point in the future that evidence could become apparent and my beliefs, based on current knowledge, would be challenged.

A similar thing could be said about psychic abilities, I don't believe, based on existing evidence, that it is possible to talk to the dead. I could, at some point, be proved wrong but extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and as yet, as far as I'm aware, that proof does not exist.

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post #19 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 09:30 PM
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An Atheist would never say "I don't know", just as a Theist would never say "I don't know". By definition the words are binary states. If you have made up your mind based upon your Faith then you are a Theist or an Atheist.

However, you can be an Agnostic and be a practicing Atheist or a practicing Theist. Which is what you described. You "don't know", but assume there is probably no "God" and generally live as an Atheist. There are many people who "don't know", but assume there probably is a "God" and generally live their lives as Theists.

Perhaps you would rather call yourself a Skeptic, but that is just another flavor of Agnostic. The problem with using the Atheist and Theist labels is that they are binary, which is usually a very poor way of defining any human. Most people fall into a range in the middle and often lean one way or the other.

Only the most ardent believers who have true "Faith" fall into the binary categories and live, breath, and evangelize their beliefs.

Edit - Which brings me back to my original post. Both Theist and Atheists already believe conclusively that evidence is there to support their belief system. These people will not change their minds even if they were brought directly into the presence of "God" or shown conclusively that there is no "God". Even most people (agnostics) in the middle would use the same thought process they have used right now to rationalize their beliefs and actions, because they already look at the hard "proofs" both sides of the extreme cling to and generally ignore it.

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post #20 of 37 (permalink) Old 05-08-13, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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I can see this going round and round, I'll have to just say that I disagree, the only absolute is the theist who is determined that he is right based on nothing but faith, an atheist doesn't deal in faith, its a keystone of what atheists stand for and against.

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