Margaret Thatcher Dies!! - Page 5 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #41 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-10-13, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bitsandkits View Post
You also have lots of people in social housing who have homes too large for there needs because there children are now adults and have flown the nest, but because its the family "home" they dont want to move but are having the housing paid for by the tax payer so if they carry on wanting to live in that house they have to pay for the privilege.
I dont think this is really true. The reason a majority of people on low incomes recieve housing benefit is not because they are renting houses too big for them, but because of lack of public housing stock they are in high priced private rented housing.

2 things could change this, building new public housing stock as has been said, but alos to raise the minimum wage high enough that it becomes a living wage (around 7 an hour according to tthe TUC). This would move alone would have a massive effect on the econamy. Beside reducing benefit budget, it would also mean getting into work was more beneficial than actually staying out of work. The only down side would be inflationary pressure but Im sure if the minimum wage increase was staged it could be controlled.

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post #42 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-10-13, 09:00 AM
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I dont think this is really true. The reason a majority of people on low incomes recieve housing benefit is not because they are renting houses too big for them, but because of lack of public housing stock they are in high priced private rented housing.

2 things could change this, building new public housing stock as has been said, but alos to raise the minimum wage high enough that it becomes a living wage (around 7 an hour according to tthe TUC). This would move alone would have a massive effect on the econamy. Beside reducing benefit budget, it would also mean getting into work was more beneficial than actually staying out of work. The only down side would be inflationary pressure but Im sure if the minimum wage increase was staged it could be controlled.
sorry i wasnt saying that people on low incomes are renting places too large for them, im saying that they are still occupying a house that became too large for them, but are reluctant to move because its the family home and because they dont have to pay rent, im saying that even if there were enough smaller places to move to they wouldnt or have no desire to, they are comfortable and they dont have the financial burden to consider, though i admit this might not be the case for all and i expect with these changes coming into effect a fair few singles and couples in there 50s are looking to move quickly.

i do agree with you about the minimum wage, at least 7 would be enough of an incentive to get many people back into work.



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post #43 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-10-13, 08:16 PM
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The way I see Thatcher's rule:

Yes, the economy needed to change here to meet the demands of globalisation and the new international division of labour, and yes that did mean we had to privatise certain state run services and companies.

However, the way she went about this was abhorrent and quite unnecessarily brutal.

Many communities in Wales and northern England that were predominantly mining and or industrial still haven't recovered, ravaged by poverty, drug addiction and degradation for generations. If those that lost their jobs were offered re-training and subsidies for education, and if the government actually managed to create jobs for them, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad...Instead her attitude was more like: If you are poor, unemployed, old or sick you should expect no help from the state because you are leeches on society. It was a vile and evil philosophy.

A society should be judged on how well it helps its sick, elderly and poor. Thatcher didn't give a crap about any of these groups of people. Selfish and heartless to the core.

Also, she is a total hypocrite on so many levels: One moment claiming she is a hardcore free-market Libertarian, the next introducing the Poll Tax which has now become the oppressively expensive and unfair Council Tax.

It's ridiculous how people continue to attack social welfare when Nordic nations have some of the most generous welfare systems in the world, and yet some of the lowest unemployment rates.
It's because work actually pays there and mothers are encouraged to work even if they are single: Sweden has free government funded daycare because they actually realise the economic benefits outweigh the expenditure of such services in the long-run. In Denmark, you get out what you pay into Unemployment Insurance based on a percentage of former salary worked on a sliding scale, with a cap on higher pay outs.
On the other side of the coin, sure it's much easier for employers to hire and fire you,but this means the labour market is much better and it doesn't matter so much if you know you will get a fair welfare pay if you are made unemployed. But perhaps absolute key is to get these generous welfare payments it is compulsory to attend (actually very useful) re-training schemes joint-funded by government and local businesses, or you won't get anything. This is called 'Flexicurity', and despite some problems those nations embracing it are experiencing far fewer social problems related to poverty than many West European nations are, and their economies are generally rated higher in terms of global and labour market competitiveness. On health scales (social trust, mental health etc.) they score amongst the highest in the world, and far higher than the US and UK (who rank consistently near the bottom).

Unfortunately, the Conservatives here are using all the stick and none of the carot: Making it easier for employers to hire and fire, but not offering any of the useful re-training schemes...If you made it compulsory for unemployed to attend re-training - and if the re-training was actually useful - they would do it or risk losing all benefits.
The fact is most people want to work and I think most the time it's down to lack of self-confidence or a genuine lack of skills, so getting people out of their house and re-trained would help so much with both.

Of course, the Tories here would never do this, simply because the attitude is poor people don't deserve any help for the crime of being born poor. Cameron's comments during the riots summed vile philosophy up: "Poor people choose their lifestyle."

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post #44 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-11-13, 05:56 PM
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I don't really understand most of the hate. Personally I can neither hate nor like Margaret Thatcher because I was born in 1985, ergo I wasn't of an age where her policies were something I could register and hating someone retroactively for something you perceive them to have done/not done seems like such a petty thing to do.

For those of voting age during her period in office, suck it up- she got re-elected 3 times, the majority of the voting public obviously agreed with her policies or at the very least considered her better than her opponents. So to turn round now when she's died and rain shit on her memory is an act of childish, blinkered vindictiveness (if you didn't vote for her then disregard my insult just know that I'm still frowning in disappointment).

I salute you Iron Lady, give the Flying Spaghetti Monster hell
I wholeheartedly agree. There seems to be way too much bandwagon jumping going on in general, which is just a continuation of the state-of-affairs ever since she left office. Myself being born at the turn of 90s and thus not witnessing first-hand her governments this is how I see it: Undoubtedly, she was a very successful and apt politician and did what she thought was right for her country. The suggestion that she was "evil" is laughable and pathetic. She had a set of beliefs, and stuck to them with conviction. It's hard to take people seriously when the most common reasons for people celebrating her death are: "she closed the mines", "she stole the milk", or simply that "she was a bitch".

I was in the bank with a mate the other morning when the news of her death was breaking and a bloke who looked around 30 (so only a child at most when she was in power) literally shouted "YESSSS!" and then phoned someone and continued to laugh and be jovial about it. At the end of the day, an old lady, with a family, has died. I see no reason to party. Her death changes nothing.



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post #45 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-11-13, 07:38 PM
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I wholeheartedly agree. There seems to be way too much bandwagon jumping going on in general, which is just a continuation of the state-of-affairs ever since she left office. Myself being born at the turn of 90s and thus not witnessing first-hand her governments this is how I see it: Undoubtedly, she was a very successful and apt politician and did what she thought was right for her country. The suggestion that she was "evil" is laughable and pathetic. She had a set of beliefs, and stuck to them with conviction. It's hard to take people seriously when the most common reasons for people celebrating her death are: "she closed the mines", "she stole the milk", or simply that "she was a bitch".

I was in the bank with a mate the other morning when the news of her death was breaking and a bloke who looked around 30 (so only a child at most when she was in power) literally shouted "YESSSS!" and then phoned someone and continued to laugh and be jovial about it. At the end of the day, an old lady, with a family, has died. I see no reason to party. Her death changes nothing.
it came down to the north and south issue, the majority of our industrial wealth was in the North, Scotland and Northern Ireland, so when she closed the pits, the steelworks and shipyards she made herself more unpopular because of the loss of jobs and sense of identity in those areas.

i have said this countless of times over the last couple of days, i grew up during her reign being born in the 70s i was also around when Heath was PM but he didn't have as big an impact on my life as Thatcher did.

I didn't like the woman, i didn't agree with how she went about things and in my eyes the rich got fatter and the poor got trod on from a great height, the Poll Tax (which is now the Council Tax) biggest mistake ever.

We had our sixth formers organise a rally outside of school protesting against the YTS scheme and other things so no i don't think they will be shedding any tears, i won't be. Given todays climate and the fact we are in a depression, the fact that the funeral is going to be costing ten million quid after the PM has announced that the Benefit system is changing to lower costs...well thats laughable.

She was not a war hero, she is not royalty so i think really it should have stayed within the family, becaause no one is going to appreciate the government shelling out (and by government i mean tax payer) that amount of money for a woman that not everyone liked is going to make them even more unpopular.

the day i wake up in a land with a government that does what it promised to do, is the day i wake up in telly tubby land. All that being said, i disliked the woman but whilst i will not be raising a toast to the Iron Lady, i will not be dancing on her grave either,
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post #46 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-12-13, 03:13 AM
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I think celebrating someone's death who was doing nothing bad during the years preceding her death and who never really did anything worse than (arguably) be a pretentious incompetant bitch of a prime minister is quite absurd.

I can understand not liking her, and I can understand loving her. I've heard both sides, one from older friends one from my overly-conservative parents. I don't care particularly that she's dead. If you're happy about it, great, keep it to yourself, it's disrespectful. Point out what she did wrong, by all means, but don't celebrate, she wasn't a monster. If you're sad, then unless you knew her or are talking to those who did - keep it to yourself. No one cares.

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post #47 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-12-13, 09:10 AM
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Of course, the Tories here would never do this, simply because the attitude is poor people don't deserve any help for the crime of being born poor. Cameron's comments during the riots summed vile philosophy up: "Poor people choose their lifestyle."
David Cameron is an example of what happened in the past with Thatcherism, i mean come on three grand for being recalled to parliment to honour Thatcher? Thats why many of the people that are not wealthy hate anything to do with Conservatives, they always have been a party for the rich, like to see him and IDS live on 53 quid a week, or whatever the redundancy pay is now when another firm closes whilst they get paid for being recalled from holiday....nice life if you can get it
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post #48 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-12-13, 09:30 AM
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David Cameron is an example of what happened in the past with Thatcherism, i mean come on three grand for being recalled to parliment to honour Thatcher? Thats why many of the people that are not wealthy hate anything to do with Conservatives, they always have been a party for the rich, like to see him and IDS live on 53 quid a week, or whatever the redundancy pay is now when another firm closes whilst they get paid for being recalled from holiday....nice life if you can get it
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post #49 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-13-13, 03:32 PM
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Given todays climate and the fact we are in a depression, the fact that the funeral is going to be costing ten million quid after the PM has announced that the Benefit system is changing to lower costs...well thats laughable.

She was not a war hero, she is not royalty so i think really it should have stayed within the family, becaause no one is going to appreciate the government shelling out (and by government i mean tax payer) that amount of money for a woman that not everyone liked is going to make them even more unpopular.
I read yesterday that the 10m is not for the funeral at all, but is the budget for the necessary security. Similar to when protests and marches happen in large numbers, security is required.

When there is a significant potential threat, security is needed. That much is common sense. But you can't blame the government for wanting to deter the potential threats from idiots, extremist republican Irish, etc.

This is a prime example of the media misleading people. What do people expect the 10m to be spent on? Finger sandwiches and flowers? :/



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post #50 of 58 (permalink) Old 04-13-13, 05:38 PM
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it's disrespectful.
Unless she's going to come back to haunt us this is completely empty statement.

If public figures are so fragile that we must never voice our opinions of them in any way lest we be labelled as hateful and divisive, then it's time they stepped down from public office. True there's some limitation of what can be said in decent conversation, but for a figure who was as divisive as Thatcher was, that's a fairly high bar to reach- and I don't see many people advocating sacrificing her to some Aztec deity or anything.

On the subject of the funeral, 10m is exorbitant, in my completely not-an-expert no-coffee estimate. Unless her funeral's being guarded by an entire mechanized division, a few pop stars, the Ghostbusters, and the New York Knicks, that's a bit much to spend on anybody suddenly transitioning from "not dead" to "dead".
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