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post #61 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DeathJester921 View Post
Im pretty sure theres been many other members here who have said don't lump everyone into one group. Obviously, you choose to ignore that.

Not all Republicans think the same on every subject. Like the subject of gays. Many Republicans are anti-gay, but many are not. I'm not anti-gay. They are people like us, who deserve the same as us.

Not every Republican here in the states is a close minded fuckwit. Not every Republican are religious nuts. Don't go spouting that shit because you think it's true. It's not.
By voting Republican you tacitly support every policy they put forwards. Saying 'I'm not anti-gay' is not enough if you then vote for someone who is. It's that simple. You're weighing up the options who to vote for and your bank balance (or whatever you motivation) is worth more than every one else's civil rights. That is exactly the 'Fuck You, Got Mine' attitude which is so prevalent in the US.

I am not lumping you all together, you are doing that by voting Republican. You even have a printed manifesto which shows what you're signing up for when you vote for them.

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post #62 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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By voting Republican you tacitly support every policy they put forwards. Saying 'I'm not anti-gay' is not enough if you then vote for someone who is. It's that simple. You're weighing up the options who to vote for and your bank balance (or whatever you motivation) is worth more than every one else's civil rights. That is exactly the 'Fuck You, Got Mine' attitude which is so prevalent in the US.

I am not lumping you all together, you are doing that by voting Republican. You even have a printed manifesto which shows what you're signing up for when you vote for them.
That is the worst argument I have ever heard:

Do I believe in God. Nope.

Do I want creationism taught in schools? Nope.

Do I either hate Homosexuals or want them to be denied the right to marry? Nope.

Do I want poor people to die? Nope

Am I rich? Nope.

Do I support the right to bear arms? (long story but) Yes.

Am I anti abortion? Yes.

Am I pro-death penalty? (long story but) Yes.

Am I for states rights over a bloated federal government? Yes.

Who do I support on the majority of issues which concern me? The Republican Party.

What am I politically? A Marxist.

Who would get my vote 9/10 of the time ... in the absence of a viable third party of the Left ... The Republican Party.

Am I a gun toting hick from the south who believes in jebus, that women should be in the kitchen, blacks should be picking cotton, homer-sexuals should be shot and believes America should invade Iran? Hell frickin no.

Your are one of the worst posters when it comes to topics like these Aramoro. You have some sort of warped world view that only sees YOUR point of view and assumes that anyone who disagrees with you or is different from what your warped world view assigns them to be is completely wrong or an idiot.

EDIT

You do understand that the Republican Party is a large organization that contains within it differing points of view? Just because alot of religious people vote for the Party doesn't mean that it does not possess a large body of members who don't give a toss about religion.

However, groups of people can work together when their views overlap. For example I am anti-abortion with exception of instances rape and familial poverty, however that doesn't prevent my views from somewhat overlapping with those if someone else who believes 'God made all life sacred'. That's the way grown up politics works. Not like your single minded Black or White viewpoint which means all or nothing.

Does that mean I am now best buddies with religious freaks and skip with them door to door as they praise jebus and bash some gays as well? Nope.

Oh and by the way ... if you think the democratic party doesn't contain any nutjobs you really know sweet f*ck all about the political situation in America.

Last edited by D-A-C; 11-01-12 at 03:21 PM.
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post #63 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 03:58 PM
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For a start you're clearly not a Marxist and a Republican so you're either lying or self deluded.

There are no alternatives because people like you do not try to change politics. You claim not to agree with basically half the Republican polices but you still vote for them. That either means you simply don't care about things like gay rights or you secretly agree with their stance to some degree. You cannot sit back and claim some moral high ground that you 'said' you disagreed with them and then voted them into power, that's not how it works. You're still going straight to 'Fuck those guys, got mine' in your political standpoint. You have no moral ground to stand on here.

Every time you vote Republican you're saying that basic human rights, social welfare and civil liberties are side issues to you, they don't matter. That's the reason the political landscape in the US is so fucked, because people are happy to sit back and watch US citizens get fucked over as long it's not them. And when it is them, welp there's too few of them and no one else gives a shit.

You say you back the Republicans on most issues, but Romney has flip flopped on pretty much every important issue so how the fuck do you know what you're getting. Just believe what he said last? I mean yeah he said there should be no federal relief for disaster victims last week but he's for it this week so......

Does your Anti-abortion stance cover just legitimate rape then? As you know women can just choose not to get pregnant after all. These are the people you're standing shoulder to shoulder with.

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post #64 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aramoro View Post
For a start you're clearly not a Marxist and a Republican so you're either lying or self deluded.

There are no alternatives because people like you do not try to change politics. You claim not to agree with basically half the Republican polices but you still vote for them. That either means you simply don't care about things like gay rights or you secretly agree with their stance to some degree. You cannot sit back and claim some moral high ground that you 'said' you disagreed with them and then voted them into power, that's not how it works. You're still going straight to 'Fuck those guys, got mine' in your political standpoint. You have no moral ground to stand on here.

Every time you vote Republican you're saying that basic human rights, social welfare and civil liberties are side issues to you, they don't matter. That's the reason the political landscape in the US is so fucked, because people are happy to sit back and watch US citizens get fucked over as long it's not them. And when it is them, welp there's too few of them and no one else gives a shit.

You say you back the Republicans on most issues, but Romney has flip flopped on pretty much every important issue so how the fuck do you know what you're getting. Just believe what he said last? I mean yeah he said there should be no federal relief for disaster victims last week but he's for it this week so......

Does your Anti-abortion stance cover just legitimate rape then? As you know women can just choose not to get pregnant after all. These are the people you're standing shoulder to shoulder with.
I understand both points but I lean towards this one more.

Due to the fact it's a two party system if you want to vote you have little choice and should vote for the party that on average you agree with more if you want to at all.

However the problem I see is that the Republicans and especially this year are torn by extremes, there's points I myself agree with, not many but some, however they are far outweighed by the negative policies they have, some of them are just horrible and if I was an American I couldn't never see myself voting for them.

In the UK we have an open party system if you get enough people you can stand nationwide easily, yes there's two big parties, a smaller third party who doesn't do itself any favours but there's a new fourth party which is actually pretty even with the third party in the polls now. Then there's loads of other smaller parties. You can vote for them and you may get a MP from them into the house of commons to look after your specific area (like the green party in brighton) but up to the next election I'd say there's 4 parties contending for places as the government or in the government as a coalition.

The American system needs to be opened up to the people again, not just the rich of two parties. Will the republicans ever give you this? I highly doubt it, the Democrats on the other hand, have more of a chance
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post #65 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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For a start you're clearly not a Marxist and a Republican so you're either lying or self deluded.
Never claimed to be both.

I'm a Marxist. If you'd bothered to read my opening post you would have known:

1. I agree with them on more immediate day-to-day social issues than the democrats.

2. I'm happy to play the long game with the Republican Party as their economic policies polarize the divide between the rich and the poor so that it is much easier for people to see what a nasty system capitalism is. This will then (supposedly) lead the exploited masses to rise up and overthrow the capitalist class and create a workers state etc, etc.


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Originally Posted by Aramoro View Post
There are no alternatives because people like you do not try to change politics. You claim not to agree with basically half the Republican polices but you still vote for them. That either means you simply don't care about things like gay rights or you secretly agree with their stance to some degree. You cannot sit back and claim some moral high ground that you 'said' you disagreed with them and then voted them into power, that's not how it works. You're still going straight to 'Fuck those guys, got mine' in your political standpoint. You have no moral ground to stand on here.
So you are knowledgable about my political activities are you?

Saying that no voting member of the Republican Party supports a homosexual's right to marriage is flat out wrong and ignorant.

I know loads of card carrying Republicans who would support them in a vote if it were held tomorrow. Again your sterotyping people.

And how the hell am I 'claiming the moral high ground', you are. Your saying your super douper awesome and anyone who dares to contradict your warped views are completely wrong.

Myself and others are flat out telling you voting for Romney is not a vote for Bible thomping nutjobs to takeover the country. That is not how America works.

It isn't a dictatorship. He can't just take office and abolish laws left right and center and create ones he finds more appealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara4moro View Post
Every time you vote Republican you're saying that basic human rights, social welfare and civil liberties are side issues to you, they don't matter. That's the reason the political landscape in the US is so fucked, because people are happy to sit back and watch US citizens get fucked over as long it's not them. And when it is them, welp there's too few of them and no one else gives a shit.
The above quote reveals you are a total biased nutjob.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ara4moro View Post
You say you back the Republicans on most issues, but Romney has flip flopped on pretty much every important issue so how the fuck do you know what you're getting. Just believe what he said last? I mean yeah he said there should be no federal relief for disaster victims last week but he's for it this week so......

Does your Anti-abortion stance cover just legitimate rape then? As you know women can just choose not to get pregnant after all. These are the people you're standing shoulder to shoulder with.
Well if your so smart how do you know what he will be like? If he has flip flopped constantly (the media overplayed this point but its partially correct), then have you looked in some sort of crystal ball and predicted he is going to be bad?

All I think is that he will be better than Obama, what more can I do than make an informed and educated guess? He could start WW3 for all I know, but I'm guessing he won't and he will help the economy in better ways than Obama has.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
I understand both points but I lean towards this one more.

Due to the fact it's a two party system if you want to vote you have little choice and should vote for the party that on average you agree with more if you want to at all.
BINGO!!!! This 100% correct, if there was a major Left-Wing Party (the democrats are not frickin left wing), I would support and campaign for them. As it stands I have to vote for what I feel is the best of a bad situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
However the problem I see is that the Republicans and especially this year are torn by extremes, there's points I myself agree with, not many but some, however they are far outweighed by the negative policies they have, some of them are just horrible and if I was an American I couldn't never see myself voting for them.
Why is it only Republicans that get labelled extreme 99% of the time. The democrats are you just as bad. It doesn't excuse extreme positions that the Republicans take, but it takes two to tango.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
In the UK we have an open party system if you get enough people you can stand nationwide easily, yes there's two big parties, a smaller third party who doesn't do itself any favours but there's a new fourth party which is actually pretty even with the third party in the polls now. Then there's loads of other smaller parties. You can vote for them and you may get a MP from them into the house of commons to look after your specific area (like the green party in brighton) but up to the next election I'd say there's 4 parties contending for places as the government or in the government as a coalition.

The American system needs to be opened up to the people again, not just the rich of two parties. Will the republicans ever give you this? I highly doubt it, the Democrats on the other hand, have more of a chance
I agree. I think Proportional Represention is much better as it encourages people to vote towards their beliiefs more as there is a chance they can get a Left-Wing/Marxist Senator/Congressman etc ... but at the same time you are going to get more nutjobs into office as Religious Parties would be pretty powerful in the U.S.

Double edged sword, but its still a a batter system of governence in terms of representing the real political landscape. Unfortunately the founding fathers didn't really 'trust' the people, so that's why the U.S works how it does.

Then again, they might not have been too wrong in their instincts.
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post #66 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 06:14 PM
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We had a referendum recently to change from a first past the post system to a proportional representation, I actually voted for PR but the majority of the country stuck with first past the post.

A lot of people still want electoral reform but it's really difficult, so much power is in the south east at the moment I don't want the elections to be focused down there as well, kind of like the way swing states in america basically hold the key to winning an election.

I do find it funny how the land of the free and democracy is actually not as democratic as a country that still has a monarchy.

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post #67 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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I don't find it funny how the land of the free and democracy is actually not as democratic as a country that still has a monarchy.
Depends on the lens your using to look at it to be honest.

I think alot of people would wish they had the level of freedoms enjoyed by even the poorest American citizen.

The American dream is that even the poorest can rise up with hard work, initiative and a little help from lady luck. In Britain there is still a evry old and well established class system.

The have's in Britain, have been in place a pretty long time.

In America, you can go from being a have to a have not awful quick.

I'm not saying America is necessarily better, I'm just saying that imagining Britain is any freer would be wrong.

The rich and powerful in all countries tend to run the show, the question usually is just how badly the lower classes get screwed over.

In America as in Britain there are 'some' checks on how badly you can get screwed.

Personally I would rather be Middle Class in America than in Britain. It just seems like you would have a better deal.
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post #68 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 07:38 PM
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i am not sure you have much of a middle class left, do you?

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post #69 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 07:42 PM
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The fact you think the class system has any greater baring on your success in life than the money in your pocket speaks volumes about your ignorance DAC it really does.

The poorest in the US can just bootstraps themselves out of poverty? Is that so? 46.2 million Americans living in poverty in the US would like to disagree.

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post #70 of 177 (permalink) Old 11-01-12, 09:18 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...E_story_3.html

Guantanamo is a tag team effort by both sides of the line. No one wanted to accept those detainees into their districts and no one wanted to just dump them back out into the world. If McCain has been in office the place would still be open because of this.


As to the rest of your post, our healthcare system is a cancer and needs to be fixed. Obamacare was a step in that direction that should have been worked on and enhanced since it was passed. Instead Congress has bickered over removing it and not providing anything that would fix the issue of healthcare in it's place.

This country is going to have to make some seriously hard decisions about our future, we will have to increase taxes, we will have to shrink the government, and it is going to suck for everyone. If we do not do it we are going to become Greece in the near future and have no choice at all on the matters. Of the two running for office at the moment, Obama is more likely to try and do those choices. The question is will he have a Congress with the nuts to back him or not.

Obama said the first thing he was going to do in office was to take down Guantanamo Bay. It was part of his around the world kiss ass stratedgy. Whats even more disapointing was that lots of democrats in congress including Senator Reid used Guantanamo as a political promise before they were again elected into office. McCain and the Republicans never took that promise and position. Where is the outcry. No one cares now for some liberal reason.

As far as the health care issue. The new health care issue is one in which doesnt work. The real reason why people don't pay for health care is because they don't have the money. So what? They made a affordable health care which is going to probably be only useful for second class health care. You still get John Q. And plus, if you still can't afford this health care or don't want to pay for it then you get taxed. Fuck.


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Oh looks like someone doesn't know the difference between the form of government and the source of power for the government. You don't think you live in a democracy, holy shit. Representative democracy it still a form of democracy and totally unrelated to your form of government as it happens.

I've always thought anyone who votes Republican must be mentally ill in some way, like foetal alcohol syndrome or something. Threads like this confirm that belief. It's amazing how anti-homosexuality Republicans are when they're pretty happy to let Romney fuck them in the ass.
I'm not anti-homo sexual. Just because someone says they don't support homosexuality doesn't make them hate homo-sexuals. They have certain beliefs over the matter, but when push comes to shove, if your around a homosexual who is friendly and caring around you, no one, not even a rupublican is going to start hating on him.

I don't like when someone says something about that about republicans. Plain and simply, you are misimformed and either lying or just a tool to people who claim such things.

A republic is a representative form of democracy. There has never been a true democracy. That would dictate that a state be literally ruled by its people.

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I find it interesting that it's the Republicans who are conservative and perceived as the rich white man's party when that's what the Democrats originally were. Somewhere along the line the Democrats became liberal and their roles switched.

It was the Democrats who were conservative and supported slavery for example during the Civil war era.
This is true. I can best describe the Democrat Party as a bunch of sell outs.

Someone also said something about that changing in the 1960s with the civil rights era. But that's not really true either. I'm in a feminist class and its interesting to see how people only look at the civil rights issue and completely ignore women's rights.

The republicans were the champions for women's rights until 1975, and you could even go as far as saying the Republicans carried womens vote until after Reagan. But now they are considered sexist because the Liberals have forced more women running for their parties than the republicans.

It goes to show you that the Democrats have sold out their beliefs to, to many different mindset of voters. This has created conflict for them, and its funny because you'll see that many of them are seperated drastically by many issues.

The more recent one is the Democratic Party trying to make it look like they are the party that supports the troops and are almost trying to promote nationalism, after so many years of being the party that promotes peace and green efforts. This Nationalism can also be seen by Obama trying to drone the shit out of the Taliban. All of a sudden, the Democrats are supporters of creating conflicts with other countries who don't permit us to blow up terrorists and innocent people in their country.

Last edited by ckcrawford; 11-01-12 at 09:25 PM.
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