50 Shades of Grey - WTF? - Page 7 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #61 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Rems View Post
Except in this case these books are objectively 'shit'. They're badly written, featuring poorly developed characters. It was actual fan fiction since adapted into its current form.

It's not a matter of bias, or intellectual superiority, or elitism, these books are by objective standards, poor literature.

That doesn't mean people can't (or shouldn't) enjoy reading them, but just because something is popular doesn't mean it's particularly sophisticated or good. All it means is that it appeals to enough people for various reasons to become popular.
How do you objectively measure a work of art exactly? I think you mean subjective don't you.

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post #62 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 02:43 PM
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However if random and pointless bashing and jokes is what we are going for, that's cool, it just probably shouldn't be in this particular sub-forum...
Agreed. It is a book not by GW; we have a forum specially for discussion of those.

Moved

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Originally Posted by Rems View Post
Except in this case these books are objectively 'shit'. They're badly written, featuring poorly developed characters. It was actual fan fiction since adapted into its current form.

It's not a matter of bias, or intellectual superiority, or elitism, these books are by objective standards, poor literature.

That doesn't mean people can't (or shouldn't) enjoy reading them, but just because something is popular doesn't mean it's particularly sophisticated or good. All it means is that it appeals to enough people for various reasons to become popular.
A slight conflict there: if they are objectively bad then they are bad for everyone; if some people enjoy them then they are not bad for everyone. You may believe they are poorly written compared to works that have been called great literature; I might agree if I read them. EDIT: ninja'd

If I see one of them in the library I will probably pick it up so see what my opinion on the phenomena is; however, I will not be making any effort to find a copy as I usually read scifi, fantasy, thrillers and crime, not romance.
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post #63 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Magpie_Oz View Post
I'm wondering what domination has to do with Protestants?

(Phenomena btw)
Thank you for the correction, I forget the "ph" thing in english often. I was just making the observation, I have lived in Spain (of course), England, Germany and Uruguay, and have friends from all over the world. In the countries with a protestant history I have found many more who like the dom/sub thing (sexually speaking) than in catholic countries. I was wondering if my impression is true, and why (if it is true)......

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post #64 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 02:58 PM
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In the countries with a protestant history I have found many more who like the dom/sub thing (sexually speaking) than in catholic countries. I was wondering if my impression is true, and why (if it is true)......
Interesting point. Both Catholicism and Protestantism have elements that fit nicely into a D/s relationship, but I can't see why one would be more so than the other. If anything, I would have thought Catholicism would lend itself to the mindset more readily of the two.

Catholicism has themes that follow a sense of low self esteem - humans are inherently and inescapably sinners, and the only way to absolve yourself of your sins is through confession/debasement to an authority figure, along with the more commanding/prescriptive nature of Catholic priesthood advice.

On the other hand Protestantism has the "I can be worthy if I work hard enough at it" theme, which goes hand in hand with trying to please your Dominant, and is less obsessed with ceremony and is more humble overall. Protestant priests tend to be less "do what I say" and more "let's work together to get through this" from my experience, which, to the layman, can appear to be completely counter to the way D/s relationships work.

I suppose it depends on how religious the culture is overall (England, for example, is technically a Protestant-based culture, but the vast majority of the population couldn't care less), perhaps the stronger the religion, the less motivation there is to exercise control over other areas of your life? Maybe people who are strongly religious see sexual practices that are not "vanilla" as sinful?

You also need to consider whether you are talking about lifestyle D/s relationships, or "playtime" D/s relationships. Whether one partner is overtly dominant 24/7, or whether you're just talking about what happens during sex, because they are two very different things.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.
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post #65 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 03:09 PM Thread Starter
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...
Seriously, 6 pages in and I'm still the only person who bothered to read them before judging them?

Here is the problem though for me Sethis. I don't want to read the books as I know that they are not going to interest me, therefore I will not be able to attain any kind of enjoyment out of them.

What I actually started this topic for was to discuss the phenomenon that has erupted in the public sphere where a book is being heralded as a 'Marriage Saver', 'Starting a Baby Boom in the UK', is acceptable 'Mummy Porn', andis literally flying off the shelves at all major book outlets and is supposedly releasing the 'Inner Goddess' of every woman in the Western World.

The book is literally effecting the demographics of the world according to some sources and so this has caused me to say ... WTF is going on?


However (spoilers ahead for anyone who cares)

I have a friend who is reading the book and has informed me of the following:

1. Grey is a 'smoldering' Billionaire who is deeply scarred from a relationship he had for 8 years starting when he was 15 with his mothers friend.

2. The book is filled with 'accidents' that account for 90% of what transpires in the book, i.e. Anastasia only meets Grey because her friend is sick with the flu.

3. Anastasia's friends dad bought the two of them a luxury apartment in Seattle when they completed their studies ... just because.

4. Anastasia was a virgin who had rarely or never drunk alcohol until a certain point in the novel, and then she was sick, and Grey magically turned up to get her because ... he new she was at a party because his brother is also sh*gging Anastasia's best friend, who happens to be a man eater but changes her ways immediately for Grey's brother.

5. Anastasia had to enter a ridiculous 'contract' with Grey which included absurdities such as seeing a fitness trainer four times a week, and accepting anything the 'dominant' asks of the submissive.

6. She was a virgin till she met Grey, but then suddenly she had the best sex of her life with a smoldering billionaire who is also hung like a horse AND enagages in anal sex during her first time, loves that, then the next morning has a bath with him and performs oral sex like a pro. So she was a Virgin, then in the space of 24hrs had performed, oral, vaginal and anal sex.

That's were I'm up to on the story. But all this is making me think to myself ... WTF is going on? Why is this such a hit?

Ontop of what sounds like a horrible plot that is more than vaguely misogynistic, and I bet if it was written by a man, it would be classified as such too. Add to that, that the grammer/prose is supposed to be of a really poor quality as numerous words are repeated to describe emotions and sexual acts and you have yourself a piece of popular culture trash that is making money hand over fist and has everyone talking.

Sorry to repeat myself but ...WTF is going on? Are people really this stupid, are they so undiscerning in their cultural tastes that they read this trash which will be forgotten in a few years and ignore all the classics of literature? I mean more than a few people have said the basic story structure is similar to the stories of Jane Austin, but I bet few of the millions of readers of 50 Shades have bothered to pick up the book. Another literary classic which is supposed to be infinitely superior is the Story of O. It is set in France and has practically the same storyline, the only diferrence being that it is well written, but it isn't flying off the shelves to the tune of one million pounds a week.
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post #66 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 03:25 PM
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@ Sethis: I don't think most people here care about religion either, so I don't think the concious idea of sin is involved. I do think that the people here are much freer sexually, sex is shown on TV during the daytime at times when the kids can see it and is not at all "taboo", so maybe this has an effect?

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post #67 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Corporal Punishment 69 View Post
@ Sethis: I don't think most people here care about religion either, so I don't think the concious idea of sin is involved. I do think that the people here are much freer sexually, sex is shown on TV during the daytime at times when the kids can see it and is not at all "taboo", so maybe this has an effect?
I suppose there is something to the idea that the more you repress something, the more extreme it is when it finally gets released... Maybe people in your country are more open to trying something "exotic" in the bedroom, so when a book comes out focusing on those "exotic" practices, it makes less of a fuss, because your population is like "yeah, we've all tried it" whereas our population is like "OMG this is even possible??".

But I have zero experience of Spanish Culture (the closest I've come is Crete/Greece - which we can agree is not very) so I can't speculate on that part.

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
Here is the problem though for me Sethis. I don't want to read the books as I know that they are not going to interest me, therefore I will not be able to attain any kind of enjoyment out of them.
Book... Cover... Judging...?

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
What I actually started this topic for was to discuss the phenomenon that has erupted in the public sphere where a book is being heralded as a 'Marriage Saver', 'Starting a Baby Boom in the UK', is acceptable 'Mummy Porn', andis literally flying off the shelves at all major book outlets and is supposedly releasing the 'Inner Goddess' of every woman in the Western World.
Whatever your intentions, so far it's been a litany of people taking the piss, rather than a discussion of any kind. And despite the lamping of the term "Inner Goddess" (and yes, it is used a little too often in the books prose) it actually effectively describes how a lot of people feel inside their own minds. A lot of people do feel that there are different voices/desires in their heads that sometimes conflict, and they have to make decisions that satisfy one or the other. It's a phrase that it's easy to take the piss out of, but actually does work reasonably well in the context in which it is used.

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
1. Grey is a 'smoldering' Billionaire who is deeply scarred from a relationship he had for 8 years starting when he was 15 with his mothers friend.
Incorrect. His mother is dead for a long time by this point, and the scarring comes from his early childhood (birth til 4-5yrs), and is actually helped by this relationship more than he is hurt (although some hurt does occur).

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
2. The book is filled with 'accidents' that account for 90% of what transpires in the book, i.e. Anastasia only meets Grey because her friend is sick with the flu.
Yes, there are points where coincidences seem a little too frequent. However show me ANY dramatic work that progresses entirely logically with no chance/random events happening?

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
3. Anastasia's friends dad bought the two of them a luxury apartment in Seattle when they completed their studies ... just because.
People are rich. And?

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
4. Anastasia was a virgin who had rarely or never drunk alcohol until a certain point in the novel, and then she was sick, and Grey magically turned up to get her because ... he knew she was at a party because his brother is also sh*gging Anastasia's best friend, who happens to be a man eater but changes her ways immediately for Grey's brother.
Yes, she is a virgin. Yes, she doesn't drink. Not exactly unbelievable in a country which actively promotes marriage before sex. The fact that she's never masturbated is a little more unbelievable... And I can't even be bothered to explain how badly wrong that explanation of her friend and the party is.

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
5. Anastasia had to enter a ridiculous 'contract' with Grey which included absurdities such as seeing a fitness trainer four times a week, and accepting anything the 'dominant' asks of the submissive.
She NEVER SIGNS THE CONTRACT. She THINKS about it, and refuses. The "contract" is a reasonably common part of the D/s subculture found across the world. It is a little more extreme than most, and a little less extreme than others. If you're going to have consensual non-consent, you need to be clear about drawing the lines, and having it all written down saves a lot of pain and misunderstanding later.

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
6. She was a virgin till she met Grey, but then suddenly she had the best sex of her life with a smoldering billionaire who is also hung like a horse AND enagages in anal sex during her first time, loves that, then the next morning has a bath with him and performs oral sex like a pro. So she was a Virgin, then in the space of 24hrs had performed, oral, vaginal and anal sex.
Doesn't have anal sex, ever. Uses a butt plug once, later in the series. It's a romantic novel, so of course he's hung like a horse and the sex is amazing. Who would enjoy reading "The adventures of Frigid Sally and Needle-Dick the Bug Fucker"? Really? The fact that she has no apparent gag reflex is something that again strained belief a bit unnecessarily, but have you heard of the "Pedestal" problem?

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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
On top of what sounds like a horrible plot that is more than vaguely misogynistic, and I bet if it was written by a man, it would be classified as such too.
A man being in charge of the relationship is not mysogynistic provided it is consensual. This is the biggest hurdle in thinking that critics need to get the fuck over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post
Another literary classic which is supposed to be infinitely superior is the Story of O. It is set in France and has practically the same storyline, the only diferrence being that it is well written, but it isn't flying off the shelves to the tune of one million pounds a week.
It isn't the same at all, as you would know if you'd read either of them.

90% of people think they are above average.

Statistically Improbable. Psychologically Inevitable.

Last edited by Sethis; 08-02-12 at 06:58 PM.
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post #68 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by D-A-C View Post

6. She was a virgin till she met Grey, but then suddenly she had the best sex of her life with a smoldering billionaire who is also hung like a horse AND enagages in anal sex during her first time, loves that, then the next morning has a bath with him and performs oral sex like a pro. So she was a Virgin, then in the space of 24hrs had performed, oral, vaginal and anal sex.

Yep, I begin to wonder whether E.L James remembers the discomfort of her first time, or for that matter, am wondering if she may actually still be a virgin. However, she does not have anal at this scene, you are misinformed


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Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
The fact that she has no apparent gag reflex is something that again strained belief a bit unnecessarily.



The fact that she's never masturbated is a little more unbelievable....
Everyone has a gag reflex, and even if she didn't, no woman would ever take it that far down on her first go, if ever. And yes, it is rather unbelievable...

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post #69 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 10:02 PM
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Im pretty sure theres a scene where he removed her tampon and does her on her period because he can't be fucked to wear a condom for contraception. What image does that send? Girls should bow down and be subservient to men, even if it means excruciating pain for a woman? I'm no feminist, far from it, but is this the image we want people to think?
Personally, I'd never really want to see a used tampon, never mind pulling one out of a woman's "inner goddess"...Also, I remember hearing that he says something like "good, I hate wearing condoms", even though it's still possible to get a woman pregnant when she is on her period.

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And the book... can also be... a hat.
This made me laugh
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post #70 of 83 (permalink) Old 08-02-12, 10:26 PM
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Are people really defending this book?

Praise to the Machine God
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