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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-28-10 03:05 AM
hailene Another difference between then and now is how Space Marines are used.

Back in the day, they'd assault head on and build a bridge of dead if need be to smash the enemy. Even the big match up on Istavaan V was a slug match of epic proportions.

A modern chapter simply can't afford to sustain such losses. They have to be rather more pragmatic.
09-27-10 10:49 PM
darklove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chompy Bits View Post
I don't think the fact that some of the chapters have organs that don't work properly anymore is the result of time. I mean, chapters such as the Utramarines, Dark Angels & White Scars still seem to have properly functioning geneseed and their geneseed is just as old as that of the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard. I think that's more to do with how the different chapters have handled, implanted and protected their geneseed rather than the passing of time.
It could be a massive conspiracy!

Maybe there is a traitor that is sabotaging the geneseed?
09-27-10 08:18 PM
Gree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khorne's Fist View Post
I think the point about the 30k's being more independent and free thinking is a good one. The codex is extremely restricting, actively discouraging thinking outside the box (Uriel Ventris anyone?), so I think they may have been quicker to respond to a tactical situation, or find it easier to adapt.
Not really. Despite the common sterotype the Codex is not really restrictive at all.

Index Astartes Imperial Fists notes that the Codex actively encourages initative in the lower ranks and the Imperial Fists got more flexible and less predicatable when they adopted the Codex. The whole point of the Codex is tactical flexiblity.

Quote:
Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react.
Plus the codex is evolving all the time.

Index Astartes Ultramarines

Quote:
The Codex Astartes laid down the tactical doctrines of the Imperium's fighting forces and was to grow and evolve over the millennia into a massive tome that detailed everything from battlefield stratagems to uniform markings for various squad types.
09-27-10 04:41 PM
Chompy Bits
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warsmith40 View Post
The Blood Ravens are also quite at odds with the codex, their Librarians encouraging the Chapter to various acts outside the bounds of the Codex.
The Blood Ravens are dodgy to say the least. They keep forbidden knowledge in their libraries, they have a huge stash of alien weaponry on one of their battle-barges, plus they try to hide it if any of their marines suffer mutations. Even without the fact that their chapter master is a pawn of Nurgle, if the Inquisition had to have a look around their ships, I'm pretty sure they'd be declared excommunicate traitors very quickly. As such, not strictly following the codex astartes is the least of their problems.

In general though, I agree that the codex can be more of a hinderance than an asset at times. When the UM tried to apply the codex in the 1st Tyrannic War they pretty much got slaughtered (man, must their faces have been red). Also, other than the remnants of the original loyalist legions, there aren't that many chapters who still specialise in a specific areas of combat (the Blood Ravens & Soul Drinkers being some of the exceptions).

I don't think the fact that some of the chapters have organs that don't work properly anymore is the result of time. I mean, chapters such as the Utramarines, Dark Angels & White Scars still seem to have properly functioning geneseed and their geneseed is just as old as that of the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard. I think that's more to do with how the different chapters have handled, implanted and protected their geneseed rather than the passing of time.
09-27-10 03:51 PM
Warsmith40 On the subject of the Codex Astartes, I'd like to say that while in many cases it does dictate a set reaction to a situation, it also encompasses a large number of effective tactica for nearly any battle situation. It also ironed out the loyalty and power balance of the Space Marine forces. The reason a Chapter can no longer simply go to war on its own is the whole point: to prevent another horrible rampage.

The reason I say horrible rampage is because I agree that a company of Space Marines will certainly perform best with support from the Imperial Guard and Navy, a whole Chpater is meant to be an independent body of war. It's been stated in several of the SM codexes that a Chapter has the resources to conquer multiple star systems independently, so I wouldn't quite peg them and Guard-dependent.

Back to the Codex Astartes, not all Chapters follow its precepts to the letter. The Blood Angels successors are more aggressive and reckless than the codex dictates, and the Space Wolves are similar in this regard. The Blood Ravens are also quite at odds with the codex, their Librarians encouraging the Chapter to various acts outside the bounds of the Codex.

I'll have more later, but I'm out of time at the moment
09-27-10 09:38 AM
Angel of Blood Indeed, it seems the more like a 30k marine you become, the more of an outcast you become. And the 40k gene seed is much much weaker than it is now i thought, some chapters don't even have all the implants anymore as they are lost to them.
09-27-10 08:50 AM
darklove
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coder59 View Post
Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
No surprise then that Uriel is considered as rather a maverick, and verging on heretical. He was not a popular choice for company captain.
09-27-10 12:20 AM
hailene Right after that sentence I quoted it says, "The Chaos powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus' troops against the Emperor."

So apparently it was both physical and mental. In short, bad in the complete sense.
09-27-10 12:19 AM
locustgate
Quote:
Originally Posted by hailene View Post
In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor. Several HH mentions that you either passed or died, during the tests.
09-27-10 12:17 AM
locustgate [QUOTE=hailene;739730]In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
QUOTE]

I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor.
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