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  Topic Review (Newest First)
06-30-10 10:07 AM
Warlock in Training
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*



The only time an army shouldn't have anti-psy is if you can't take it or you have a very specific build like IG blast spam or Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise you should always be fitting in psy defense.



Leafblower and Lash Chaos aren't good lists. Leafblower is an unoptimised IG list which everyone claims Darkwynn "created" IG mech with...because IG mech wasn't around before then. Lash dies to Mech and the Chaos codex is overcosted to it's new Marine conterparts.



there is no metagame. Metagame implies change. 5th edition hasn't changed since it's inception, only individuals' playstyles have. New books offer tiny "meta" changes [such as improved psychic abilities] but we are operating under the 5th edition rules. Must "metagaming" is tailoring because people don'tunderstand army mechanics. There is no cheese. Cheesy/OP/powergaming/etc is percieved when there is a huge discrepency between perceived army "power." This is generally a lack of understanding in game mechanics, i.e. leafblower, chaos and orks all being considered "good." Balanced lists will win more often than not against rock lists which has nothing to do with being cheesy or powergaming or the metagame. It's about understanding the rules and building an army to the best of the book's ability and playing to the best of your ability. This has nothing to do with this misconception of WAAC players who actively cheat. As a competitive gamer (unlike someone like Blackmoor) I want to find someone who has a good list and can use it because it's a great game more often than not and I'm just as likely to lose as win. Win %'s mean jack all so bashing up crap lists doesn't make me happy, even at tournaments (unlike Blackmoor). I'd rather beat good players and good lists yet people think this is power gaming because I'm taking the best list I can and should be punished with flaming, nerdrage and arbitary comp scores.
I get where your comming from, but I still think if they dont have a way of blocking you and move 6" Nob Bikers rock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklove View Post
I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead.
The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.
I agree with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethis View Post
To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.

It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.

It's a bit trickier than that for 40k, because while you have the overarching theme of "Mech", each army does it in very different ways. You can have Mech assault, Mech shooty, Mech Spam, Mech Support and non-Mech (Horde, Sledgehammer etc) and every single army book will do it in different ways (A mech shooty Tau army requires a different unit selection and playstyle than Eldar for example) and therefore the perfect "Counter Army" is different for each race as well.

To give an example - You play against 4 people regularly, one has Tri-Raider with Dreadnought support, one is Mechdar, one is Tau Mech and one is Blood Angels.

All of the above armies are Mech, but consider:

- You need lots of Melta guns to kill the Tri-Raider list, but...

- Melta Guns are bad against Eldar and BA because Eldar are too fast and Angels will chop you up if you get that close without causing any damage previously, but...

- If you go for multiple S7-8 Weapons to deal with the Eldar/BA then you'll get smashed by the Tri-Raider list and the Tau (with their AV13 and 4+ Cover in the open) so...

- You have to take a balanced list with some Melta, some long range transport popping and some way of dealing with infantry. Your Metagame is still "Mech", but it's extremely hard to create a list tailored to beat such a broad concept, unless most of your opponents are playing exactly the same army list.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with being a Metagamer, because even if you do tailor your list slightly (I know I play Orks a lot, so slightly more Flamers make it into my lists than otherwise would) it's impossible to make a counter-list for what the meta game is.

Hopefully that made sense.
Yes, it does help.
06-30-10 09:36 AM
Sethis To solve a bit of the confusion; Metagame is the term used to describe how the majority of people you regularly play against play the game.

It's generally more applicable to Magic: The Gathering than it is to 40k, because there are only really three archtypes in MTG - Control, Aggro and Combo. Each of the three has sub-sets, but you can generally fit any deck into one of the three broad catagories. If you have 10 people who you play regularly, and 6 of them play aggro, 2 play control, 1 plays combo, and 1 plays some random deck that even he doesn't seem to know how it works, then your metagame is "Aggro", because that is what you face most often. You would then start tailoring your own deck to deal specifically with Aggro.

It's a bit trickier than that for 40k, because while you have the overarching theme of "Mech", each army does it in very different ways. You can have Mech assault, Mech shooty, Mech Spam, Mech Support and non-Mech (Horde, Sledgehammer etc) and every single army book will do it in different ways (A mech shooty Tau army requires a different unit selection and playstyle than Eldar for example) and therefore the perfect "Counter Army" is different for each race as well.

To give an example - You play against 4 people regularly, one has Tri-Raider with Dreadnought support, one is Mechdar, one is Tau Mech and one is Blood Angels.

All of the above armies are Mech, but consider:

- You need lots of Melta guns to kill the Tri-Raider list, but...

- Melta Guns are bad against Eldar and BA because Eldar are too fast and Angels will chop you up if you get that close without causing any damage previously, but...

- If you go for multiple S7-8 Weapons to deal with the Eldar/BA then you'll get smashed by the Tri-Raider list and the Tau (with their AV13 and 4+ Cover in the open) so...

- You have to take a balanced list with some Melta, some long range transport popping and some way of dealing with infantry. Your Metagame is still "Mech", but it's extremely hard to create a list tailored to beat such a broad concept, unless most of your opponents are playing exactly the same army list.

So actually, there is nothing wrong with being a Metagamer, because even if you do tailor your list slightly (I know I play Orks a lot, so slightly more Flamers make it into my lists than otherwise would) it's impossible to make a counter-list for what the meta game is.

Hopefully that made sense.
06-30-10 08:03 AM
Ravingbantha If you don't like tanks, the field tank busters. After a game or three your opponenets will get the idea and stop doing it.
06-30-10 07:54 AM
darklove I think there are a lot of meta game evolutions all the time. Each new codex and each new FAQ brings change. As people adapt their lists to beat the armies they fight most often, and those armies in turn change to stay one step ahead.
The good gamers (gamers are those that are interested in tactics and strategy and applying rules) always change their game and try to stay several steps ahead Hobbyists don't change their lists much because for them the hobby is more about models and painting, but the meta game is definitely very active among gamers.
06-29-10 10:59 PM
Kirby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.
Because people don'tknow how to deal with them. See again, 6's to hit *waves to mech.*

Quote:
Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys.
The only time an army shouldn't have anti-psy is if you can't take it or you have a very specific build like IG blast spam or Vanilla Bikers. Otherwise you should always be fitting in psy defense.

Quote:
I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.
Leafblower and Lash Chaos aren't good lists. Leafblower is an unoptimised IG list which everyone claims Darkwynn "created" IG mech with...because IG mech wasn't around before then. Lash dies to Mech and the Chaos codex is overcosted to it's new Marine conterparts.

Quote:
I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.

Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.
there is no metagame. Metagame implies change. 5th edition hasn't changed since it's inception, only individuals' playstyles have. New books offer tiny "meta" changes [such as improved psychic abilities] but we are operating under the 5th edition rules. Must "metagaming" is tailoring because people don'tunderstand army mechanics. There is no cheese. Cheesy/OP/powergaming/etc is percieved when there is a huge discrepency between perceived army "power." This is generally a lack of understanding in game mechanics, i.e. leafblower, chaos and orks all being considered "good." Balanced lists will win more often than not against rock lists which has nothing to do with being cheesy or powergaming or the metagame. It's about understanding the rules and building an army to the best of the book's ability and playing to the best of your ability. This has nothing to do with this misconception of WAAC players who actively cheat. As a competitive gamer (unlike someone like Blackmoor) I want to find someone who has a good list and can use it because it's a great game more often than not and I'm just as likely to lose as win. Win %'s mean jack all so bashing up crap lists doesn't make me happy, even at tournaments (unlike Blackmoor). I'd rather beat good players and good lists yet people think this is power gaming because I'm taking the best list I can and should be punished with flaming, nerdrage and arbitary comp scores.
06-29-10 10:04 PM
Katie Drake 'Kay, apparently people don't know what the metagame actually is.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game.
There's no reference there to WAAC play.
06-29-10 09:43 PM
Lord Reevan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift)
I disagree with this. metagamer doesn't really have a proper definition but I know loads of people who can basically play the entire game without looking at the rulebook or the codex because they play a lot. I'm one of them. do something enough times and it's stuck in your head basically. Also mathammer is technically in every list. You know Tau are gonna suck in CC against Marines because they need higher dice rolls to cause any damage and marines need much lower dice rolls to kill them. that's technically mathammer.

On most other points I Agree with mostly. Just a niggly thing I had to reply about hehehe
on that topic however what is the general consensus as to what a "metagamer" is?? is is someone who has to win no matter what and basically throws every other aspect of the game(including fun) out the window??
06-29-10 09:33 PM
Warlock in Training
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.

Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.

Fritz generally posts okay due to his understanding of 40k but he doesn't drop out uber competitive. Elfzilla (aka Wraithguard, Harlies, WLs) sucks. It has very limited mobility, poor anti-tank and poor cc ability outside of the Quins and expects you to land on it's anvil of Wraithguard and be counter-assaulted. It's not solid by any account, it's sub-par like all foot eldar.

And there is no meta-game. There is warhammer 40k 5th edition with players who understand the game mechanics and build balanced lists within those rule contrainsts (who are generally called WAAC, power gamers, cheesey and all that other crap for playing a tactical game...well tactically) and people who don't play to those constraits (either willingly or unwillingly; the unwillingly ones are generally the ones jumping up on down with the labels of cheese and OP whilst gamers like Fritz are more the willingly types).

Im Curious by Game Mechanics and how people dont know them when it came to Nob Bikers. I still see Nob Bikers, Lootas in Battlewagons, and some foot slogging boys with Mek work well.

Seer Councils still work well, theres alot of Meta Gamers (I use this term for anyone who has remembered the rules by heart and applies math hammer to their lists, nothing bad about them, I dont have that gift) who dont run enough Anti Psy to deal with a Eldar Player busting this list out in Tourneys.

I also said the Fritz harlie list is not Competitive, but Solid. I still think its Solid. Just my Opponion. I think Iyaden Writh Gaurd/Lords/Avatar/Eldrad list are Solid. Alot others dont. There is very few all comers beat all by Math Hammer list. Leaf Blower and Lash/PM/Oblits come to mind, but even they can be beaten by other list.

I have nothing against Cheesy Players/Meta Gamers. I always try to build a list that can compete. Like Fritz though I enjoy playing something different from the Copy Paste List that you see so much of that you and Kate were talking about earlier.

Let me know about the Nob Bikers deal.
06-29-10 02:13 AM
Kirby
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock in Training View Post
All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.
What scene? Nob biker armies suck because they can't deal with mech. I'll willingly forego my shooting with 1 or 2 tanks to block your movement and shoot you with the rest of my army. Seer Councils were good when psychic defense was rare and wasn't a pure 50/50 roll. To make seer councils work you need double fortune which means 2 Seers or Eldrad and most people don't run this which means it becomes unbalanced when you versus soemone with psy defense. People worry about Nob Bikers because they don't get game mechanics. Seer councils are worrisome becauase they can fit into balanced lists from a good book but no where near as much as they used to be. I'd rather versus a jetlock council Eldar list than pure mech.

Ya I've killed Councils. It's not exactly easy but when you have a balanced list with sacrifices, torrent, anti-psy and abilities like Null Zone, Councils are capable of being dealt with, just like TH/SS termies.

Fritz generally posts okay due to his understanding of 40k but he doesn't drop out uber competitive. Elfzilla (aka Wraithguard, Harlies, WLs) sucks. It has very limited mobility, poor anti-tank and poor cc ability outside of the Quins and expects you to land on it's anvil of Wraithguard and be counter-assaulted. It's not solid by any account, it's sub-par like all foot eldar.

And there is no meta-game. There is warhammer 40k 5th edition with players who understand the game mechanics and build balanced lists within those rule contrainsts (who are generally called WAAC, power gamers, cheesey and all that other crap for playing a tactical game...well tactically) and people who don't play to those constraits (either willingly or unwillingly; the unwillingly ones are generally the ones jumping up on down with the labels of cheese and OP whilst gamers like Fritz are more the willingly types).
06-29-10 01:38 AM
Warlock in Training
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
Sorry, Nob Bikers handle mech how? Hitting on 6's? Same with Councils. Eldar handle mech through mass S6 & Fire Dragons backed up by Prisms (certainly not Wraithlords :S). DE also wreck havoc @ lower points w/Raider/Ravager/DL spam. Move away form that and DE unfortunately suck currently.
All good points. However Nobs List have dominated the Scene, hitting on sixes? How so, unless that tank decided to forgo each shooting phase so you roll sixes. Otherwise 4+ makes the Tank go pop, PKs a must. Same for Seer Councils, if they're so flawed then why were they highly stressed about? Cause again Tanks that wish to shoot have to move 6" not 12". 4+ again to pop, OR use Singing Spear to to Wreck a Vehicle that moved 12" Anyway. Hmm.... also ever tried to killed a Fortune 4+ Inv Seer Council? If you have Kirby you know nothing less than sheer bad dice roll on their part kills them. The Wraithlords also work in Harlie Theme Armies. Look up WayOfTheSaimHann vids on Youtube and its pretty solid. Not UBER but solid.The DE thing I cant really say as I have yet to try it. You know as well as I some things look good on paper but fail in the game, others look horrible but can win. Also this from a friendly stand point and not Ard Boys Meta Gamer point.
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