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  Topic Review (Newest First)
03-20-10 03:08 AM
DeathKlokk LOL, sorry SHar. My sarcasm detector is on the fritz.
03-19-10 03:58 PM
Cyklown Plus lets not forget that the dreaded "Eldrad in a Rolls Royce, I mean Falcon" effect is powerfull enough without stripping anti-psychic defenses, particularly range-based ones.
03-19-10 03:54 PM
SHarrington DK, the questions were meant to bring to light certain flaws in the argument that was favoring the "models aren't on the board so can't be effected" theme.

I was trying to show, by asking pointed questions, that if we begin to split hairs over the use of the term model being exclusive from the character in the unit, we will shatter many many rules.

I, personally, am of the opinion that anything that uses the term model is only doing so for easy reference to exact targetting. It is not doing so to provide a way for people to dodge effects by having their 'model' off the board.

I appreciate the response, though. Next time I will try to be a little more transparent in my efforts.
03-19-10 12:53 PM
DeathKlokk
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHarrington View Post
I'm still confused.
So if the rule refers to something as a model, what the model represents is no longer considered part of the unit, and thus is not elgible to be included in the measure to the hull or measure to the fireport it used rules?
Errrrr... what?

Quote:
If so, then if we remove a model from play, the unit it left doesn't have to take a morale check for 25% and stuff like that then? If models are not units, then they don't count for KP if they are removed from play by things like WBB, Bolt of Change, and the Orc psychic power that turns a model into a squig?
No, removed is a casualty. Sometimes a model is removed regardless of wounds, so they don't get some special saves most of the time.

Quote:
I just want to make sure I understand this. If it refers to a model, then what its refering to is automaticlly unjoined from its unit? When does it have to regain coherency? (Or does it?)
No. Not sure how you're getting this. A unit is a group of models. If a unit is in a vehicle, so are it's models. They are boderline synonymous.
03-19-10 11:27 AM
Winterous For simplicity's sake, you measure the hood to the hull of the vehicle he's in, because the model is not actually on the board it's just easiest to basically say "For the purposes of anything referencing this particular model, he IS the vehicle."
03-19-10 09:17 AM
Aramoro RAW Psychic hood cannot nullify powers from guys inside tanks. The model is not on the table and it certainly wasn't the tank that passed the Psychic check. The distinction between models and units is used fairly frequently throughout the rules and it always works the same way.

Models means that actual model e.g. Your taking dangerous terrain tests, each model takes a test so if your Sargent fails his he dies and you cannot assign that wound to the squad, tank shock, explosion radius, template weapons etc all count models (although these wounds are assigned).

Casting powers from inside the tank has rules, you measure from the hull, or a fire port for shooting attacks.

Obviously RAI you measure to the hull of the tank and you can use it. I don't think anyone would seriously argue you cannot use hoods on guys in tanks.

Aramoro
03-19-10 09:02 AM
SHarrington I'm still confused.
So if the rule refers to something as a model, what the model represents is no longer considered part of the unit, and thus is not elgible to be included in the measure to the hull or measure to the fireport it used rules?

If so, then if we remove a model from play, the unit it left doesn't have to take a morale check for 25% and stuff like that then? If models are not units, then they don't count for KP if they are removed from play by things like WBB, Bolt of Change, and the Orc psychic power that turns a model into a squig?

I just want to make sure I understand this. If it refers to a model, then what its refering to is automaticlly unjoined from its unit? When does it have to regain coherency? (Or does it?)
03-19-10 07:13 AM
solkan My rant may have been slightly off topic, but the conclusion that the psychic hood is measured against the hull when interacting with another embarked psyker is still incorrect.

The rules for psychic shooting attacks follow the shooting rules, and the shooting rules say to measure distances from the fire point instead of the hull, so it would be incorrect to measure to the hull for the firing psyker. Remember the "(except for its shooting)" part of the rule on page 66.

The psychic hood is, after all, specified as interacting with "an enemy model within 24" of the Librarian" and not a psyker in a unit within 24" of the Librarian.
03-19-10 04:02 AM
DeathKlokk
Quote:
The only statement we have to use in the rules for determining whether or not any members of the unit are subject to the effect is the statement on page "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." and the statement on page 66 that ranges and line of sight for models firing out of fire points are done from the access point.
I fail to see how that statement doesn't cover your scenario. You measure to the hull, not the part of the hull that the model is likely to be occupying, just the hull.
03-19-10 03:44 AM
solkan SHarrington's description of the rules fails to note that there is no clear indication that the rules actually work that way.

For the purpose of what follows, please take note that the scope is only the rules as written in the rulebook, and for the sake of discussion I am going to treat the rulebook FAQ as not existing. Please don't respond to any of this with something stupid like "You can't hurt units in transports" because the rules don't actually say (or even imply) that anywhere.

Let's say that there's a 4" long transport positioned so that half of the transport is out of range of a an ability or power or effect (such as a psychic hood, or one of the area effect psychic powers, or a 6" vehicle explosion). Let's also say that there are ten models in the transport. So pick any arbitrary number of models from in that transport and try to determine where they are and whether they are subject to the effect.

The only statement we have to use in the rules for determining whether or not any members of the unit are subject to the effect is the statement on page "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." and the statement on page 66 that ranges and line of sight for models firing out of fire points are done from the access point.

If it was trivial or obvious how to determine whether any particular model is in range, even though the unit is in range, then the rulebook FAQ for using psychic powers on embarked units wouldn't have to start with the phrase "For simplicity's sake, ..."
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