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  Topic Review (Newest First)
11-10-15 07:06 PM
NathanJD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xabre View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJD View Post
Cultists current role in the codex is to fulfill the mandatory force org as cheaply as possible so that more points can be spent on units that are not available in this detachment, namely Bel'akor, Daemon Princes, Heldrakes and nurgle bike/khorne juggernaught lords.
Out of everything you said, this bothered me the most. You created an army for fluff with no demons at all... so that you can make it as cheap as possible to ally in demons?!?!

Build an army for what you want. Not loopholes to play stronger other lists.
Hah! Sorry I made a very confusing statement. What I meant to say is that in the current CSM codex (without this detachment) that is how Cultista are used. With this detachment I'm trying to make Cultists useful outside of that as Cultists are kind of Alpha Legion's shtick. Hopefully because this list doesn't have access to the aforementiones "better" units then buffing Cultists will not increase the power of the existing "best" lists.
11-10-15 03:26 PM
alt-f4 My 2 cents about this detachment :

- I globally like it (and still hope similar official detachments/formations to come up soon for CSM),

- Daemonic restrictions are too restrictive for me : why would Alpha Legion not use Daemons when they need to ? Even if they were supposed (because nothing may be taken for granted with the Alpha Legion) to fight against Chaos during the Heresy, they could use Chaos to do it. And after 10K years, nothing proves that AL still works as a Legion, and that some warbands of it could not have dedicated themselves to Chaos (or been corrupted by it),

- Nevertheless, I agree to the fact that Daemons would be Allies of Convenience for such a Primary Detachment. Actually, I think that all other detachments/formations should be Allies of Convenience, from Alpha Legion ones (CSM do not trust AL, and even AL must sometimes be wary of ... AL) to Imperium ones (AM/SM/SB/Inquisition could be tricked into working and fighting for AL purposes without being aware of it),

- Stubborn/ATSKNF and Infiltration "for everyone" is a too great (and too easy) buff, IMHO,

- The Warlord change mechanism too specific and aside of the current ruleset (why not just being allowed to keep it unknown under Champion stats until he uses his own stats and abilities, for instance ?),

- The "Preferred Enemy" when AL reveals its agenda is interesting. But I wouldn't make it last during the opponent's next turn (and not making it a double penalty for melee-oriented armies).
11-10-15 01:01 PM
Xabre
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanJD View Post
Cultists current role in the codex is to fulfill the mandatory force org as cheaply as possible so that more points can be spent on units that are not available in this detachment, namely Bel'akor, Daemon Princes, Heldrakes and nurgle bike/khorne juggernaught lords.
Out of everything you said, this bothered me the most. You created an army for fluff with no demons at all... so that you can make it as cheap as possible to ally in demons?!?!

Build an army for what you want. Not loopholes to play stronger other lists.
11-10-15 06:44 AM
ntaw See? You got this on lockdown. Have you looked at the AL 30k rules for inspiration at all?
11-10-15 06:40 AM
NathanJD I've changed it to a 3+, no warlord trait transfer. It certainly "feels" better now. For fluff, perhaps despite trying to appear so mysterious there are critical weak points in the command structure that you might hit at random. At least enough to cause a break in command continuity for however long a game of 40k is supposed to take in real time.
11-10-15 06:28 AM
ntaw I think that making it a roll would help, as well as losing the Warlord Trait (bonus marks for replacing it with something else that's very situational or specific to the AL). There's no fluff excuse I can think of, it just feels kinda....wrong. It's sci-fi though, so explanaitions are only limited by the imagination of the authour.
11-10-15 06:09 AM
NathanJD
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
That's way too dieseled for the Warlord stuff, but I see how it's very AL in a way. At least now it's clearly worded!
How would you suggest toning it down? Perhaps reducing it to only working on a 3+ like Yarrick and Celestine? I don't know what the fluff justification would be for limiting it though. Preventing the warlord trait from carrying over is probably the best thing to do 1) to tone the power down and 2) I could see some very weird order of operations situations coming out of say, a moving bubble effect.
11-10-15 05:57 AM
ntaw That's way too dieseled for the Warlord stuff, but I see how it's very AL in a way. At least now it's clearly worded!
11-10-15 05:53 AM
NathanJD
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
I like it, but am unsure of how the Warlord moves. How does one randomly select, and how does it work with Slay the Warlord?
Thanks for the feedback. I've updated the document to address these issues. Random selection happens as per the BRB under "Randomising". Slay the Warlord or any other benefits that trigger from a Warlord being slain don't trigger until there are no more models eligible to become the new Warlord. I also figured that any warlord traits transfer as the information for the battle plan would be distributed throughout the force and any legionnaire could step up to fulfill the roll of "Harrowmaster."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xabre View Post
It's... well, boring.

No offense, I like the idea of it, I like the fluff behind it. BUT I don't see the purpose of it.

...

You get access to Infiltrate, once per game Preferred Enemy, Stubborn, and a fancy Warlord thingie.

...

It just feels like you've removed SO MUCH of the Chaos Codex, that just like 'loyal' TSons, you're not doing enough to earn your fluff back.
Fair points, thanks. I've changed stubborn to ATSKNF for Marines as it better follows GW precedent set with Cypher's Chosen. Hopefully this small buff will help to make the detachment feel worthwhile even with the harsh restrictions.

I've also attempted to give Cultists a more central role in the army in an effort to differentiate from loyalist chapters. Cultists current role in the codex is to fulfill the mandatory force org as cheaply as possible so that more points can be spent on units that are not available in this detachment, namely Bel'akor, Daemon Princes, Heldrakes and nurgle bike/khorne juggernaught lords. On Cultists, I added Objective Secured and fixing deep strike scatter for friendly units within 12". However since daemons are only allies of convenience to models in detachment this only benefits Terminators, Jump Packs and Dreadclaws.

Now here is where I feel I might of gone overboard. I gave Cultist Champions the Shatter Defenses special rule from the Warp Smith entry. I felt this was a fluffy way to represent sabotage but maybe an auspex equivalent should be used to fill the same fluff in a less powerful way.

So where does the flavor and usefulness of the army come from? With much infiltrate and reliable reserves an Alpha Legion player can evolve tactics to changing conditions in a way not available to even a loyalist chapter. Counter deploying is the default, and even a near full null deploy is possible.

One might use the following detachment to sabotage the enemy's defenses and guide an outflanking unit of renegade infantry or mutants on to the table while fixing their leadership. Well, until the sorcerer commits suicide in a challenge that is. This example is to show the benefit of splashing even the minimum detachment into an existing army.

# Primary Alpha Legion
## HQ
Sorcerer - 60

## Troop
10 Cultists - 50

10 Cultists - 50

# Allied Renegades
## HQ
Command Squad - 45

## Troop
30 Mutants - 90

So I suppose the reasons to take this detachment would now be:
  1. Infiltrate for Infantry
  2. Reliable reserves
  3. re-roll deep strike scatter when near cultists for non daemons
  4. Shatter defense per unit of cultist
  5. ATSKNF
  6. Once per game preferred enemy.

I don’t particularly see this detachment as a viable 1850 point army by itself, more of a good supplement to another Chaos detachment. Although it wouldn’t be too hard to put 27 infiltrating meltas right in the opponents face (infiltrating chosen and havocs). I myself will most of the time play this detachment allied to Renegades. However if you consider forgeworld, particularly IA:13, then I think there is enough variety to make a pure Alpha Legion list. Hell, just re-rolling reserves on a Fire Raptor without having to take a comms relay sounds pretty damn good.
11-10-15 03:31 AM
ntaw Fair points as always from @Xabre . I -never- think about what Codex might offer a better ruleset and often peruse homebrew stuff that has weird loopholes that often need be sorted out pre-game unless it's your buddy/regular gaming person.

....even though I have often joked with people about playing a Khorne army out of the Blood Angel 'dex with Daemon allies
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