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  Topic Review (Newest First)
07-10-15 09:10 AM
tyrsfang
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
This is it specifically, and welcome to Heresy! It's just hard to swallow for those of us that only played DA because of Deathwing Terminators, where our collections now need to be expanded to play the army we could a couple weeks ago. Change is a thing that happens, some people deal with it differently.

Are you an avid DA player?
Yes however my track record would lead any other player to give up, lightning claw vs tau stealth suits i lost all mine opponent lost none. But that's not the point of this thread.

give me a week to get and through the codex and I'll make a better contribution.
07-09-15 10:47 PM
ntaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyrsfang View Post
I think we are looking at is the synergy between the two wings in order to portray this as gameplay.
This is it specifically, and welcome to Heresy! It's just hard to swallow for those of us that only played DA because of Deathwing Terminators, where our collections now need to be expanded to play the army we could a couple weeks ago. Change is a thing that happens, some people deal with it differently.

Are you an avid DA player?
07-09-15 10:55 AM
tyrsfang [QUOTE=Stormxlr;2170930]Same as Ravenwing are not part of Deathwing.

It's not designed with the game play in mind, it goes by the fluff: The ravenwing go in first and do recon, then the Deathwing deep strike in.

I haven't seen the codex yet, but what I think we are looking at is the synergy between the two wings in order to portray this as gameplay.
07-03-15 05:55 PM
Loli While I understand your complaint, the game unfortunately changes. I got into Dark Eldar the moment the 5th Edition book a was up for preorder. I realised early on I wasn't too fond of Warriors/Raider/Venom spam. I quickly turned to Coven. I loved the models, units, fluff, everything. I built my army around a strong core of Wracks, frequently fielding 30 bodies as my core troops. I used that until the end of 5th and even 6th. But the last book somewhat gutted it because it became impossible to field Wracks as troops, even from the Supplement . Yes other things got better but the core of my army was gone. Unfortunately it's just how the game works, so move on.
07-03-15 03:21 PM
darkreever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
If I recall correctly DW could be a stand alone force since something like 2nd or 3rd edition and every edition forward except Now.
And guard had doctrines, space marines had traits, and tyranids custom biomorphs. Things change, this time around it has happened to deathwing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Also shows poor rule writing.
Sorry but you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. Unbound lists, to me, are simply lists which either spam a ton of powerful units to win at all costs or create a force for which there is no detachment or formation for at this time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
And if you gonna bring up that you shouldnt play DW in tournaments because they are not competitive. Well I choose what I want to play.
Good for you, I was never going to bring that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Ravenwing is a requirement if you dont want to loose by having your force not show up.
If you want to make use of the rule where you choose when your stuff comes in then yes. Otherwise no they are not a requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Thanks for clarrifying that, now explain to me why can they arrive turn one...
The hammerfall assault force starts with the land raider, terminator captain, and assault terminators on the board (well land raider with everything mounted) while the regular terminators are in reserve and can't show up until turn 2 the earliest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
You can say you can use that formation, or rule but why do I need to jump through loops and hoops just to play my army. why do I need more than one book to play my army. Why should I buy more formations and codices?
Because these days thats the name of the game, GW is not going to let us older players get by without spending more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Interesting that you bring that up... So SOB CAD allows them to take their own basic troop choice as troops.
If by allows them you mean gives them only one option in troops then yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Khorne and SM DC do the same.
Sure, if by they can do the same you mean the formation dictates what units they can and cannot bring. (A space marine demi company must take three tactical squads, no more or less and they must be tactical squads. A slaughtercult must take a unit of possessed.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
and SM DC wanted you to take bikers? Bikers are not part of a Battle Company.
Actually one of the assault options in the demi company (two demi companies make a battle company) is a bike or attack bike squad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
3k army? Are you kidding me who ever plays 3k games weekly? Thats absurd. Here no one plays above 1500-1750 even tournaments are no more than 1750. No one even plays apocalypse around here, and I dont usually see any 2k point game.
My apologies, you mentioned your 3k army in an earlier post.

I don't think a 1750 point list would be to hard to make:

Hammerfall assault force
Terminator captain with storm shield and burning blade

Terminator squad
Chainfist, assault cannon

Assault terminator squad
3x Storm shield and thunder hammer

Land raider redeemer with multi melta
Tota: 835

Deathwing redemption force
Interrogator chaplain
Terminator armour

Deathwing terminator squad
1x Additonal terminator, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield, plasma cannon

Deathwing terminator squad
1x Additonal terminator, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield, plasma cannon

Deathwing command squad
Apothecary, champion, plasma cannon, light claws, thunder hammer and storm shield

Total: 905
Net total: 170/1750

29 terminator models and one land raider. You can easily get Belial into the list by dropping a terminator (from either of the two 6 man squads) and the command squad can be swapped out for deathwing knights.
07-03-15 08:21 AM
Stormxlr
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Stop being overly dramatic, your army isn't invalidated it has just seen a few changes. So you lost the ability to make a moderately powerful alpha strike, its not like you have a completely unusable army now.
You are right its not completely unusable just nearly so.
SM,GK,BA, iirc SW can make that moderately powerful alpha strike, you know what else they can do? They can simply start on the board.
Lets look at not so Deathwing Strike Force.
Can I field my army on the table turn one legally without begging? No.
Can I use any of my land raiders in the same CAD. No.
Do I have to buy more models that I did not have to/want to. Yes. ( Drop pods, Ravenwing)
Did I loose the ability to use my FW Land Raiders ( and Deredeo). Yes. ( No more heavy support)

Lets say that I take 5 Dreadnoughts in DP so 3 arrive turn one and 2 arrive turn 2. (thats about 700 points with upgrades, so half your force (not very optimal for 5 models either). There is pretty good chance they will be shot of the board with that low av12/10 before your turn 2. There is a good chance that none of your terminators will arrive turn 2. You can loose just by having no models on the table in turn one or two.
Most people dont have more than 1 or 2 Dreads. I have just 3.
If I recall correctly DW could be a stand alone force since something like 2nd or 3rd edition and every edition forward except Now.
Going unbound is mostly not liked and unaccepted in tournaments. Also shows poor rule writing.
And if you gonna bring up that you shouldnt play DW in tournaments because they are not competitive. Well I choose what I want to play. Except now I cant.

Ravenwing is a requirement if you dont want to loose by having your force not show up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
The hammerfall assault force is a formation in the strtikeforce ultra dataslate; its one half of the strikeforce. The new marine codex has a modified version of strikeforce ultra, with different special rules (like normal terminators getting +1 shot to their weapons on the turn they arrive from deep strike rather than being able to run and shoot) but I don't think its a stretch that you can still use the hammerfall and skyspear formations from the dataslate.
Thanks for clarrifying that, now explain to me why can they arrive turn one while DW could do it for many many years before they arbitrarily decided they cant, compared to other codex that has a way to do it.
You can say you can use that formation, or rule but why do I need to jump through loops and hoops just to play my army. why do I need more than one book to play my army. Why should I buy more formations and codices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
First yes I did, and second no it does not force you to take ravenwing. It gives yuou a very, very good incentive to take ravenwing but by no means forces you to take them. Once again stop being dramatic.

A sisters of batle CAD forces you to take battle sisters as troops, a Khorne daemonkin slaughtercult forces you to take possessed, a space marine demi company forces you to take three tactical squads. The deathwing strike force gives you a very good incentive to take ravenwing, it doesn't force you.
Interesting that you bring that up... So SOB CAD allows them to take their own basic troop choice as troops. Khorne and SM DC do the same. So why cant Deathwing take their own basic troop choice ( DW Terminators) as troops without having to take something thats not related to them?
What if SOB CAD required you to take IG guardsmen. Khorne required you to take Slannesh Daemonnets, and SM DC wanted you to take bikers? Guardsmen are not part of SOB, Daemonnets are not part of Khorne, and Bikers are not part of a Battle Company. Same as Ravenwing are not part of Deathwing.
Your point is moot and doesnt make sense. And if you want to bring up fluff reasoning.
Deathwing go to battle alone more then once. Latest Unforgiven novel shows at least 4 examples of that.(Defense of the Rock (central gate wall), Boarding of enemy ships(Anovels Flagship, Terminus Est, also they led DW counter charge mounted in Land Raiders)

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
And again, with the list I put up before, you couldn't field something like that with your 3k army? A dred, four land raiders, and about thirty five terminators.
3k army? Are you kidding me who ever plays 3k games weekly? Thats absurd. Here no one plays above 1500-1750 even tournaments are no more than 1750. No one even plays apocalypse around here, and I dont usually see any 2k point game.
07-01-15 10:28 PM
ntaw Just proxy the whole army out of the Grey Knights Codex
07-01-15 09:24 PM
darkreever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Well its hard to keep it straight when your one and only army becomes invalidated and they force you to BUY MORE MODELS YOU DONT WANT.
Stop being overly dramatic, your army isn't invalidated it has just seen a few changes. So you lost the ability to make a moderately powerful alpha strike, its not like you have a completely unusable army now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
But what is this 1st company hammerfall strike force, as I see its from C:SM ?
The hammerfall assault force is a formation in the strtikeforce ultra dataslate; its one half of the strikeforce. The new marine codex has a modified version of strikeforce ultra, with different special rules (like normal terminators getting +1 shot to their weapons on the turn they arrive from deep strike rather than being able to run and shoot) but I don't think its a stretch that you can still use the hammerfall and skyspear formations from the dataslate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Also did you see DW Strike Force , its literally has a rule (Summoned to War) that forces you to take RW. Otherwise you need to roll reserve rolls for your DW terminators. So yes it is an RW tax.
First yes I did, and second no it does not force you to take ravenwing. It gives yuou a very, very good incentive to take ravenwing but by no means forces you to take them. Once again stop being dramatic.

A sisters of batle CAD forces you to take battle sisters as troops, a Khorne daemonkin slaughtercult forces you to take possessed, a space marine demi company forces you to take three tactical squads. The deathwing strike force gives you a very good incentive to take ravenwing, it doesn't force you.


And again, with the list I put up before, you couldn't field something like that with your 3k army? A dred, four land raiders, and about thirty five terminators.
07-01-15 06:45 PM
Stormxlr
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkreever View Post
Well, I know for me, after having read the title claiming this is a tactica about how to use/play the new deathwing I was rather disheartened when the first section came off as whining.

I mean when you have things like: acceptable way to play, pay to fix, and make the best of it your not starting out to strong (in my opinion at least.)


Actually it looks more like a 'something other than deathwing' tax. Though depending on what you take, that doesn't mean quite so much. From a quick glance, the 1st company hammerfall assault force seems like a good deathwing-like tax. Just throwing a 2k list together I came up with:

Deathwing redemption force
Belial
Daethwing command squad
-Apothecary, champion, plasmacannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Venerable dreadnought
-Plasmacannon, drop pod, battle of Keylek legacy of glory-
1165

1st company hammerfall assault force:
Captain
-Terminator armour, burning blade, storm shield-
Terminator squad
-Assault cannon, chainfist-
Terminator assault squad
-3x Thunder hammer and storm shield-
Land raider redeemer
-Multi melta-
835

Total: 2000

Nets you:
Belial
Terminator captain
17 deathwing terminators
10 non deathwing terminators
1 land raider

You start with the assault termies and captain mounted in the land raider on the board.


At 3k I'd put in the land raider spearhead, taking two normal land raiders and a second redeemer, alongside a unit of deathwing knights, and then drop a deathwing assault cannon to plasmacannon in order to be right at 3k.

Seems like a rather fun list to me.
Well its hard to keep it straight when your one and only army becomes invalidated and they force you to BUY MORE MODELS YOU DONT WANT.
But what is this 1st company hammerfall strike force, as I see its from C:SM ?

Also did you see DW Strike Force , its literally has a rule (Summoned to War) that forces you to take RW. Otherwise you need to roll reserve rolls for your DW terminators. So yes it is an RW tax.
06-30-15 09:55 PM
darkreever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Kinda interesting that I only got 1 reply on heresy but 2 pages of ongoing discussion on B&S.
Well, I know for me, after having read the title claiming this is a tactica about how to use/play the new deathwing I was rather disheartened when the first section came off as whining.

I mean when you have things like: acceptable way to play, pay to fix, and make the best of it your not starting out to strong (in my opinion at least.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormxlr View Post
Also now instead of Belial tax we have ravenwing tax.
Actually it looks more like a 'something other than deathwing' tax. Though depending on what you take, that doesn't mean quite so much. From a quick glance, the 1st company hammerfall assault force seems like a good deathwing-like tax. Just throwing a 2k list together I came up with:

Deathwing redemption force
Belial
Daethwing command squad
-Apothecary, champion, plasmacannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Daethwing squad
-1x Additional terminator, assault cannon, 1x pair of lightning claws, 1x thunder hammer and storm shield-
Venerable dreadnought
-Plasmacannon, drop pod, battle of Keylek legacy of glory-
1165

1st company hammerfall assault force:
Captain
-Terminator armour, burning blade, storm shield-
Terminator squad
-Assault cannon, chainfist-
Terminator assault squad
-3x Thunder hammer and storm shield-
Land raider redeemer
-Multi melta-
835

Total: 2000

Nets you:
Belial
Terminator captain
17 deathwing terminators
10 non deathwing terminators
1 land raider

You start with the assault termies and captain mounted in the land raider on the board.


At 3k I'd put in the land raider spearhead, taking two normal land raiders and a second redeemer, alongside a unit of deathwing knights, and then drop a deathwing assault cannon to plasmacannon in order to be right at 3k.

Seems like a rather fun list to me.
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